The best loopholes for using dads tractor as a lorry. DVSA please don't look in here.

[Smiffy]

That was not my point.

It should normally be weighed as it would be used coupled up not in isolation.

Plus seeing as they give you 5% tolerance which is more than the nose weight allowed for most vehicle & trailer combos there is normally no need / point in weighing uncoupled as long as the weight is under the plate weight.

My guess is
a, that the trailer was so far over loaded that they wanted every possible weight available for when / if it goes to court.
b, that weigh bridge cant have a vehicle off it with the trailer on it & still give an accurate weight.

I use a local one that needs some accurate parking so that I can weigh the trailer via the wheels without the vehicle being on the down ramp & affecting the results. The other two in the area 1 cant do this as they have steep ramps & the other is a pain with bigger trailers.

When I was building the trailer hiab / machine platform I was back & forth to the weighbridge.
As I drove on I weighed the vehicle, then the vehicle & trailer, then the trailer. Then uncoupled & re weigh the trailer so I can then calc the nose weight applied.
I would have liked to do each axle as well but just not possible. However the 3 axles total 1000kg more than the trailers MLPM so would be hard to overload one without being able to see it.

But you suggested that there is a possibility that the trailer wasn't as it was towed in therefore un prosecutable. And on previous threads you have stated that the trailer weight is mgw of the trailer plus towbar imposed weight. Which it clearly isn't otherwise weighing it like that wouldn't achieve anything.

 

[doobin]

Never mind all that, did it have detachable ramps on it? Remember, even if they were on the towing vehicle they are still part of the trailer weight....

 

[JD450A]

Never mind all that, did it have detachable ramps on it? Remember, even if they were on the towing vehicle they are still part of the trailer weight....

The ramp is likely 250kg

 

[Justme]

But you suggested that there is a possibility that the trailer wasn't as it was towed in therefore un prosecutable. And on previous threads you have stated that the trailer weight is mgw of the trailer plus towbar imposed weight. Which it clearly isn't otherwise weighing it like that wouldn't achieve anything.

Its not as it was towed in.
It was coupled up.
Nose weight is weighed as part of the vehicle.

The nose weight is weighed with the vehicle, you cant weigh it twice.
The vehicle cant be fully loaded to its MAM & then also have a trailer attached or its MAM will be exceeded.
Or the vehicle weight plus trailers weight would add up to ,more than the actual total.
Example
vehicle on its own weighs 3250kg
Trailer on its own weighs 3250kg
Added together they weigh 6500kg.
They weigh them using drive over scales to get each axle weight or a platform with the ability to weigh each axle.
The vehicle weighs in at 3400kg & the trailer at 3100kg. Still the same total.
They now for reasons unknow decide they want to re weigh the trailer on its own.
The trailer now weighs 3250kg making the theoretical total 6650kg if they dont also re weigh the vehicle.
The vehicle must be weighed with trailer attached or they might miss the rear axle being overloaded or its MAM being exceeded.

If I can find it I will copy it here but I have a reply from DVSA tech that confirms that they do not uncouple trailers to weigh them normally (also remember this was a police stop not DVSA). As its the as used weights that are needed.
Much is said re 5th wheels being treated differently to ball hitches yet the regs do not support this.
HGV & non HGV have different regs.

BE combination 5th wheels can have 3500kg trailer that actually weigh north of 4000kg as the applied load is weighed with the vehicle as part of its load.
Some pickups cant be fully loaded when towing its legal max trailer weight either as the GTW is shared.
The confusion comes from lorry drivers & TM's as the regs for lorry trailers means that the unit has to be plated for the applied load but the trailer also has to be plated for its actual total load not accounting for the applied load.
Example
Unit weights 8t but is plated to 20t
Trailer is plated to 36t
About 1/3rd of trailers weight is applied to the unit making its in use weight about 20t and the trailers in use weight about 24t.

Under car regs the trailer would only need to be plated to 24t.

But I will say it again, this is all pointless as the 5% allowance will in most legal cases be less than the applied nose weight for a post 19-01-2013 BE combination.
A trailer with the correct nose weight weighing 3500kg through the wheels could be up to 3650kg when uncoupled (150kg nose weight) yet the 5% takes you to 3675kg anyway. You should only get ticketed if you are over that or over one of the other limits.
For most people nose weight is a non event unless it puts the rear axle load over its limit or takes the vehicle over its MAM.

I think in that pic they said it was about 500kg over which will possibly be why it was weighed uncoupled. As it was a high % overloaded.
They should have also queried why the mast was not lowered & stowed properly (looks like it would then not fit on trailer) & if its current height is over 3m then it would need a height sign in the cab.

 

[Smiffy]

Its not as it was towed in.
It was coupled up.
Nose weight is weighed as part of the vehicle.

The nose weight is weighed with the vehicle, you cant weigh it twice.
The vehicle cant be fully loaded to its MAM & then also have a trailer attached or its MAM will be exceeded.
Or the vehicle weight plus trailers weight would add up to ,more than the actual total.
Example
vehicle on its own weighs 3250kg
Trailer on its own weighs 3250kg
Added together they weigh 6500kg.
They weigh them using drive over scales to get each axle weight or a platform with the ability to weigh each axle.
The vehicle weighs in at 3400kg & the trailer at 3100kg. Still the same total.
They now for reasons unknow decide they want to re weigh the trailer on its own.
The trailer now weighs 3250kg making the theoretical total 6650kg if they dont also re weigh the vehicle.
The vehicle must be weighed with trailer attached or they might miss the rear axle being overloaded or its MAM being exceeded.

If I can find it I will copy it here but I have a reply from DVSA tech that confirms that they do not uncouple trailers to weigh them normally (also remember this was a police stop not DVSA). As its the as used weights that are needed.
Much is said re 5th wheels being treated differently to ball hitches yet the regs do not support this.
HGV & non HGV have different regs.

BE combination 5th wheels can have 3500kg trailer that actually weigh north of 4000kg as the applied load is weighed with the vehicle as part of its load.
Some pickups cant be fully loaded when towing its legal max trailer weight either as the GTW is shared.
The confusion comes from lorry drivers & TM's as the regs for lorry trailers means that the unit has to be plated for the applied load but the trailer also has to be plated for its actual total load not accounting for the applied load.
Example
Unit weights 8t but is plated to 20t
Trailer is plated to 36t
About 1/3rd of trailers weight is applied to the unit making its in use weight about 20t and the trailers in use weight about 24t.

Under car regs the trailer would only need to be plated to 24t.

But I will say it again, this is all pointless as the 5% allowance will in most legal cases be less than the applied nose weight for a post 19-01-2013 BE combination.
A trailer with the correct nose weight weighing 3500kg through the wheels could be up to 3650kg when uncoupled (150kg nose weight) yet the 5% takes you to 3675kg anyway. You should only get ticketed if you are over that or over one of the other limits.
For most people nose weight is a non event unless it puts the rear axle load over its limit or takes the vehicle over its MAM.

I think in that pic they said it was about 500kg over which will possibly be why it was weighed uncoupled. As it was a high % overloaded.
They should have also queried why the mast was not lowered & stowed properly (looks like it would then not fit on trailer) & if its current height is over 3m then it would need a height sign in the cab.

They aren't trying to find the nose weight.
They are trying to find the weight of the trailer.
You are only accounting for nose weight and axle weight. You are not accounting for the maximum trailer weight which is 3500kg with that trailer.
The nose weight is subtracted so 150kg nose weight would mean 1675kg on each axle. To reach it's limit.
If you put 1750kg on both axles and 150kg on the hitch you are exceeding the 3500kg limit of the trailer.
It doesn't matter which axle is carrying the load it's simply a matter of the weight of trailer not exceeding it's own maximum weight in this case 3500kg hence why he has been nocked for being 500kg overweight

 

[Bri963]

Its not as it was towed in.
It was coupled up.
Nose weight is weighed as part of the vehicle. When the whole vehicle is weighed, it's either the whole vehicle or axle weights. The only way to measure nose weight accurately is uncoupled. On one of the caravan forums one of the posters was uncoupled and weighed by DVSA, not police. Sure he's not the only one.

The nose weight is weighed with the vehicle, you cant weigh it twice. No it isn't. See above. You can be done twice, once for exceeding the nose weight, and once for an overloaded rear axle if the towing vehicle is rammed before you even couple up. Actually three offences if the trailer is over it's MAM.
The vehicle cant be fully loaded to its MAM & then also have a trailer attached or its MAM will be exceeded. Who said it could?
Or the vehicle weight plus trailers weight would add up to ,more than the actual total.
Example
vehicle on its own weighs 3250kg
Trailer on its own weighs 3250kg
Added together they weigh 6500kg.
They weigh them using drive over scales to get each axle weight or a platform with the ability to weigh each axle.
The vehicle weighs in at 3400kg & the trailer at 3100kg. Still the same total.
They now for reasons unknow decide they want to re weigh the trailer on its own.
The trailer now weighs 3250kg making the theoretical total 6650kg if they dont also re weigh the vehicle. Why would they weigh the trailer in isolation and not the towing vehicle? If they've got to this stage, they've already seen something they don't like the look of, like the headlights making aircraft pilots squint.
The vehicle must be weighed with trailer attached or they might miss the rear axle being overloaded or its MAM being exceeded. I would expect this scenario to be followed by the trailer and towing vehicle being weighed in isolation.

If I can find it I will copy it here but I have a reply from DVSA tech that confirms that they do not uncouple trailers to weigh them normally (also remember this was a police stop not DVSA). As its the as used weights that are needed. Key word = normally. Show me a set-in-stone written policy that says they don't.
Much is said re 5th wheels being treated differently to ball hitches yet the regs do not support this.
HGV & non HGV have different regs. I think in two lines you've contradicted yourself.

BE combination 5th wheels can have 3500kg trailer that actually weigh north of 4000kg as the applied load is weighed with the vehicle as part of its load. If you've exceeded the maximum plated weight of the trailer, regardless of what's under the front, you're running illegally, whether you get caught or not, except possibly in Narnia. The frame, etc. is designed for the load specified by the manufacturer and doesn't suddenly get stronger because you put an Antar under the front.

Some pickups cant be fully loaded when towing its legal max trailer weight either as the GTW is shared. Thanks for pointing this out a second time.
The confusion comes from lorry drivers & TM's as the regs for lorry trailers means that the unit has to be plated for the applied load but the trailer also has to be plated for its actual total load not accounting for the applied load. Not too sure what you're saying here, but I'd assume most transport managers to have a grasp of how to run legally, even if they don't.
Example
Unit weights 8t but is plated to 20t
Trailer is plated to 36t
About 1/3rd of trailers weight is applied to the unit making its in use weight about 20t and the trailers in use weight about 24t. The unit is plated for maximum train weight and axle loadings, regardless of what you put on the back and what it's plated to.

Under car regs the trailer would only need to be plated to 24t. ??

But I will say it again, this is all pointless as the 5% allowance will in most legal cases be less than the applied nose weight for a post 19-01-2013 BE combination.
A trailer with the correct nose weight weighing 3500kg through the wheels could be up to 3650kg when uncoupled (150kg nose weight) yet the 5% takes you to 3675kg anyway. You should only get ticketed if you are over that or over one of the other limits. Key word, should. They are not legally bound to give you any tolerance. They do it out of the goodness of their hearts unless you're a serial offender or a gobshite.
For most people nose weight is a non event unless it puts the rear axle load over its limit or takes the vehicle over its MAM. Define non-event? If you're running above the maker's recommendations you're prematurely wearing the coupling slider, and the ball/cup.

I think in that pic they said it was about 500kg over which will possibly be why it was weighed uncoupled. As it was a high % overloaded.
They should have also queried why the mast was not lowered & stowed properly (looks like it would then not fit on trailer) & if its current height is over 3m then it would need a height sign in the cab.

 

[JD450A]

@doobin it's the Ramps all over again

 

[Justme]

@Bri963 cant seem to quote you due to how you posted.
But here goes
Re TM's you would hope so yet everyone I asked re private use of an 18T vehicle to move house said it was legal with no tacho use. As did the two hire companies that were contacted & virtually every HGV driver.
They were all wrong. That exemption stops as 7.5t.

Re the rest like I said its all pointless as the small nose weigh limits would be within the 5% tolerance on a 3500kg trailer anyway.
So either your nose weigh is well over or your well over on the total weight anyway.
That trailer was 500kg over so would I guess not be in the normally not uncoupled group.

 

[Bri963]

@Bri963 cant seem to quote you due to how you posted.
But here goes
Re TM's you would hope so yet everyone I asked re private use of an 18T vehicle to move house said it was legal with no tacho use. As did the two hire companies that were contacted & virtually every HGV driver.
They were all wrong. That exemption stops as 7.5t.

Re the rest like I said its all pointless as the small nose weigh limits would be within the 5% tolerance on a 3500kg trailer anyway.
So either your nose weigh is well over or your well over on the total weight anyway.
That trailer was 500kg over so would I guess not be in the normally not uncoupled group.

I wonder if they meant that the use of the wagon for private house moving is “Out of Scope”? You’d need to use the tacho set accordingly. Otherwise it’s a bit unfortunate to find so many people who didn’t know the rules.

 

[Justme]

I wonder if they meant that the use of the wagon for private house moving is “Out of Scope”? You’d need to use the tacho set accordingly. Otherwise it’s a bit unfortunate to find so many people who didn’t know the rules.

Out of scope means you dont need to put card or paper disk in at all. Its only that for under 7.5t. I run my car out of scope for most of its use.

 

[Smiffy]

Out of scope means you dont need to put card or paper disk in at all. Its only that for under 7.5t. I run my car out of scope for most of its use.

Out of scope can become quite complicated. You really need a tm who specializes in that area rather than general transport.
Any vehicle can be run out of scope it's the work that dictates it.

 

[JD450A]

As said out of scope purely means the switch from EU rules to UK rules. On paper it means private use is exempt however you should still record hours on a tachograph.... On paper (literally) this is easy, you note it's on UK rules and the work being done that warrents that on the disc.... Then file the disk in your pack safe in the understanding your correct.

Digicard is another can of worms and ultimately makes it very difficult..... Hence why I don't have one.

In reality unless your only HGV driving is private your better off sticking to EU rules and bending them to UK regs if you have to on out of scope work.... The exemption to this rule is weekly rest periods and private use Lorries at the weekends...... This is where paper tachos come into there own if I'm honest.

 

[Canal Navvy]

I doubt we'll ever see any members post pics of their Ifor strapping on here ever again

Not really happy with it , need to source some straps with delta ends to go over the rope hooks and try to find some with rave hooks that fit properly too.

When the digger is on I'm currently running the straps from a point at the front all the way to the back under the deck and up and over to get the required restraint without using any points that Ifor Williams have labeled as 500Kg max.

 

[Smiffy]

Not really happy with it , need to source some straps with delta ends to go over the rope hooks and try to find some with rave hooks that fit properly too.

When the digger is on I'm currently running the straps from a point at the front all the way to the back under the deck and up and over to get the required restraint without using any points that Ifor Williams have labeled as 500Kg max.

Can't you get some endless slings and hook them on the rope hooks, then hook the strap on to that. When driving a plant lorry I use to keep a load of slings as they where useful to make anchor point on some kit.

 

[TiltyShaun]

Not really happy with it , need to source some straps with delta ends to go over the rope hooks and try to find some with rave hooks that fit properly too.

When the digger is on I'm currently running the straps from a point at the front all the way to the back under the deck and up and over to get the required restraint without using any points that Ifor Williams have labeled as 500Kg max.

Should you not have 3 straps per pallet?? Asking for a friend!!

 

[Canal Navvy]

Should you not have 3 straps per pallet?? Asking for a friend!!

Almost certainly...............but then I'd have to find somebody to ask why I need 3 straps per pallet when my "friends" only have two pieces of baler twine between the lot of them

 

[hiluxman]

Here's my thought of the day.

We are now putting 3 million straps on things or sheeting 500kg of top soil on the back of your truck....just incase you tip over and it falls off.

Lad who I know teaches people to use mewps and he says he gets asked about why strap in ect...same with belts in machines. The answer he gets as to why they don't is...so we can jump off...his answer is why should you need to jump off if you've set everything up as you need, it's not going to fall over so you won't need to jump off.

One of my best mates was h and s reprimanded at work....why....because he put his cup of coffee in the cup holder of the van. Again why is that an issue...it because if he tips the van over its a loose item in the cab to cause injury.

I'll let that settle in. That's how mental some of our safety things are.

 

[6feetdown]

Here's my thought of the day.

We are now putting 3 million straps on things or sheeting 500kg of top soil on the back of your truck....just incase you tip over and it falls off.

Lad who I know teaches people to use mewps and he says he gets asked about why strap in ect...same with belts in machines. The answer he gets as to why they don't is...so we can jump off...his answer is why should you need to jump off if you've set everything up as you need, it's not going to fall over so you won't need to jump off.

One of my best mates was h and s reprimanded at work....why....because he put his cup of coffee in the cup holder of the van. Again why is that an issue...it because if he tips the van over its a loose item in the cab to cause injury.

I'll let that settle in. That's how mental some of our safety things are.

No responsibility for anything these days!

 

[hiluxman]

No responsibility for anything these days!

More like passing the book on.

Many years ago a site agent told me. "See this" while rubbing their shirt. "It's Teflon, nothing sticks. I either pass it up or down"

As much as I agree with the sentiment, I also detest the attitude immensely. If your in charge grow a pair (boobs or balls) and make sure it's done right and stand by your reasons for why you did x y or z and not pass blame on.

 

[6feetdown]

More like passing the book on.

Many years ago a site agent told me. "See this" while rubbing their shirt. "It's Teflon, nothing sticks. I either pass it up or down"

As much as I agree with the sentiment, I also detest the attitude immensely. If your in charge grow a pair (boobs or balls) and make sure it's done right and stand by your reasons for why you did x y or z and not pass blame on.

Same here