Government proposal to change trailer licensing regulations.

[Justme]

Also think about the MAM of an Artic unit.

(made up weights but shows how it works)
Actually weighs about 8T but will have a MAM of about 20T & the GTW of 44t.

Roughly 1/3rd of the trailers weight will be an applied load to the tractor unit.
Actual weights if weighed individually
Tractor 8t
Trailer 36T

When weighed road side.
Tractor 20t
Trailer 24t

If what your saying is right then they can never use drive over weigh scales except for rigid units.

 

[V8Druid]

If stopped you are weighed as is not uncoupled.
Or Artic's would need to be uncoupled to be weighed.
The nose weight is an applied load to the vehicle other wise it would get counted twice.
Think about mini BE artic's.
The trailer is plated to 3500kg but due to the 1000kg applied load to the vehicle can actually weigh around 4500kg uncoupled.

you are talking about artics with an imposed load ......
a ball or eye coupled trailer is not an imposed load trailer ... the trailer's design max is 3500kgs and would be weighed as a separate entity ...
they could even weigh the nose weight separately if they suspected it to be over-loaded.

the artic/mini artic is a whole different ball game completely and would be done on axle weights / loading individually and as a whole vehicle, if they had a decent enough bridge.

 

[JD450A]

Wonder If I could tow the digger behind the road compressor?

 

[Justme]

View attachment 27788

Wonder If I could tow the digger behind the road compressor?

No.
The compressor is not a towing implement.
Think turntable 5th wheel type trailer.

 

[Justme]

you are talking about artics with an imposed load ......
a ball or eye coupled trailer is not an imposed load trailer ... the trailer's design max is 3500kgs and would be weighed as a separate entity ...
they could even weigh the nose weight separately if they suspected it to be over-loaded.

the artic/mini artic is a whole different ball game completely and would be done on axle weights / loading individually and as a whole vehicle, if they had a decent enough bridge.

The nose weight is also an applied load.
It would need to be deducted from the cars MAM & rear axle limits.

Nose weight limit has no legal force its a makers limit.

A class 02 trailer once uncoupled has no registration & cant be issued with a ticket in its own right.

If you have some authoritative source re your stance I am all ears.

 

[Smiffy]

View attachment 27788

Wonder If I could tow the digger behind the road compressor?

Only with a highside transit tipper and if it has a sun visor fitted

 

[V8Druid]

The nose weight is also an applied load.
It would need to be deducted from the cars MAM & rear axle limits.

Nose weight limit has no legal force its a makers limit.

A class 02 trailer once uncoupled has no registration & cant be issued with a ticket in its own right.

If you have some authoritative source re your stance I am all ears.

the nose weight on a ball/eye has a design max. load - stated on the coupling - a safe working load .. and sufficient to maintain stability of the trailer whilst in motion. it forms an integral part of the gross weight of the trailer (a portion of it) ... if there were 3500kgs bearing on the wheels and a further 100kgs bearing on the coupling the trailer is overloaded by 100kgs beyond it's design weight - it would weigh 3600kgs and would also be illegal.

A draw (tow) bar on a vehicle is just that - to DRAW a trailer, not carry any more of the load than specified by the coupling manufacturer on the manufacturers plate attached to the coupling.
using your arguments, what is to stop the nose weight exerted being half a tonne or more ? ?

How could this be measured without uncoupling the trailer or to decide if the drawing vehicle's MAM or axle weight was being exceeded ?

If a police or DVSA officer instructs you to uncouple the trailer in their presence, for them to assess its gross weight are you going to refuse? ??
I don't think any judge is going to argue that it was not a part of the vehicle when stopped, for assessment and would be recoupled before any tickets got issued, I'm sure .

 

[Justme]

the nose weight on a ball/eye has a design max. load - stated on the coupling - a safe working load .. and sufficient to maintain stability of the trailer whilst in motion. it forms an integral part of the gross weight of the trailer (a portion of it) ... if there were 3500kgs bearing on the wheels and a further 100kgs bearing on the coupling the trailer is overloaded by 100kgs beyond it's design weight - it would weigh 3600kgs and would also be illegal.

A draw (tow) bar on a vehicle is just that - to DRAW a trailer, not carry any more of the load than specified by the coupling manufacturer on the manufacturers plate attached to the coupling.
using your arguments, what is to stop the nose weight exerted being half a tonne or more ? ?

How could this be measured without uncoupling the trailer or to decide if the drawing vehicle's MAM or axle weight was being exceeded ?

If a police or DVSA officer instructs you to uncouple the trailer in their presence, for them to assess its gross weight are you going to refuse? ??
I don't think any judge is going to argue that it was not a part of the vehicle when stopped, for assessment and would be recoupled before any tickets got issued, I'm sure .

Yes design limits. In of themselves not enforceable. Unlike mam gtw mlpm ect.
You could tell if you are over the nose weight via the rear axle load limit being exceded.
The police and dvsa will not ask you to uncouple to weigh you.
They weigh mam gtw mlpm and each axle.
The nose weight on a BE mini 5th wheel could be well over a tonne. The rules are the same for all cat 02 trailers.
Even if your right (and your not) that100kg is only 2.85% for which they wont enforce without other factors.

 

[V8Druid]

Yes design limits. In of themselves not enforceable. Unlike mam gtw mlpm ect.
You could tell if you are over the nose weight via the rear axle load limit being exceded.

no you could not .. the rear axle could well be a tonne or more capacity and if you had 500kgs of nose weight it would be well under but way over permissible nose weight for the coupling

The police and dvsa will not ask you to uncouple to weigh you.

if they suspected your trailer of being over the 3500kg limit for overrun braking they most definitely would weigh it separately ... 3500kgs is the limit, immaterial of how much you have the nose overloaded by

The nose weight on a BE mini 5th wheel could be well over a tonne. The rules are the same for all cat 02 trailers

you're back to an artic's imposed load again ... a fifth wheel and a ball coupling are two VERY different things with equally VERY different capacities.
you are also into the realms of active braking (required for any trailer over 3500kgs gross)

Even if your right (and your not) that100kg is only 2.85% for which they wont enforce without other factors.

100kgs over the 3500kg max gross limit for over run braking is illegal, irrespective of what the percentage is ... and at the discretion of whoever tugs you. if he wants to be a bar steward, you're not just overloaded, your braking system is not as required for a 3500+ trailer ... neither is that of the drawing vehicle if it's not a truck or doesn't have active braking fitted
whatever way you want to argue it........ it's overloaded for its category and opening a whole can of worms

 

[Brendan]

Not really got much to add to this beside majority of newer pickups are 250kg nose weight although rangers Oz version is 350kg I think

 

[Justme]

no you could not .. the rear axle could well be a tonne or more capacity and if you had 500kgs of nose weight it would be well under but way over permissible nose weight for the coupling

if they suspected your trailer of being over the 3500kg limit for overrun braking they most definitely would weigh it separately ... 3500kgs is the limit, immaterial of how much you have the nose overloaded by


you're back to an artic's imposed load again ... a fifth wheel and a ball coupling are two VERY different things with equally VERY different capacities.
you are also into the realms of active braking (required for any trailer over 3500kgs gross)


100kgs over the 3500kg max gross limit for over run braking is illegal, irrespective of what the percentage is ... and at the discretion of whoever tugs you. if he wants to be a bar steward, you're not just overloaded, your braking system is not as required for a 3500+ trailer ... neither is that of the drawing vehicle if it's not a truck or doesn't have active braking fitted
whatever way you want to argue it........ it's overloaded for its category and opening a whole can of worms

I am sorry but you are wrong on this.

How can weight measured on the car via its rear axle also be measured on the trailer?

The nose weight is counted as vehicle weight. Applied loads also apply to class 02 trailers.
During a stop they weigh each axle & total up to ensure that MAM GTW & Axle limits are not exceeded, thats it.
Thats all the law actually covers for weights.
You could be done for over nose weight if it could be proved that by doing so you caused a danger. "Exceeding any of the makers limits is likely to be construed as using a vehicle in a dangerous condition"

Class 02 trailers are treated the same as all 4 trailer classes.

Again I ask if you have any authoritative sources I am all ears.

 

[Smiffy]

I would be inclined to agree with druid.

In the case of over-run brakes at least
I think drags are like arctic's as the equipment is all heavier duty.

But my thoughts on the over brakes are
If the trailer weighs 3.7t with 200kg on the towbar, then when you trying to stop regardless of weight distribution then the trailer brakes are still trying to stop 200kg more than they are they are designed to do from Jack knifeing the setup. Also no matter how good over run brakes are they are still pushing the tow vehicle whereas with an air braked drag it is pulling you backwards.


The second way of looking at it is, if the tow hitch setup was rated at say 5t for the sake of this argument and it's being towed by the lorry above which is empty.
Then you could in theory have the axles at there legal limit of 1.16t per axle. But then an additional 3t sat imposing weight on the tow vehicle. Now if the lorry above is empty then 3t being imposed on it is nothing. So then all your axle weights and train weight will be within legal operating limits, but I'm sure we can all agree running an ifor at 6.5t isn't going to be legal, therefore if you scale it back to 100kg nose weight it's still not going to be legal.

And by running an ifor at 3.6t you will be running it beyond design limits.

 

[Bri963]

I’m with Gra on this. It’s a legal requirement for the max. imposed load (vertical load) to be supplied by the vehicle manufacturer, the trailer manufacturer and the tow bar manufacturer if third party supplied. The lowest one is the one you work to. Regardless of whether plod weighs you coupled or uncoupled you’re a twat if you knowingly overload using the excuse in your own head that some of the weight is transferred to the towing vehicle. The manufacturers put a weight limit on their product for a reason. If you brake hard, especially on a downhill, you suddenly impose a hell of a lot more than your static weight onto the coupling.

 

[V8Druid]

the MAM or MGW of a trailer is assessed as though the trailer is an entity in its own right .... no where does it say you can add on X amount for the nose weight ... if you weigh it it must not exceed 3500kgs on over run brakes --- end of . The trailer in its entirety can not weigh in excess of 3.5t and can not share any excess through transfer

as for nose weight, it is governed by the manufacturers designed and marked, type approval plate affixed to the coupling - the 'S' value and represents the maximum vertical load which can be applied to the towing hitch/coupling.
the trailer nose load should not be confused with the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) of the trailer.
The amount of weight that the trailer exerts on the vehicle's tow hitch has a specified max. "S" rating and must not be exceeded - it may for example specify a 200kg max but that is entirely dependent on the towing vehicle's towbar limits for applied nose weights - these are normally significantly lower,
The vehicle manufacturer's hand book will also give the maximum "S" value which can be applied to the rear towbar mountings; the actual vertical load which can be applied to the hitch is the lower of the two values.
The total that the coupling is capable of pulling is defined by the "D" rating on the type approval plate.

 

[fred]

im with Justme on this, they weigh the axles otherwise a mini artic couldnt be driven on a car licence with a 10 ton trailer.

Pretty sure VOSA weigh noseweight as well to see if its within the manufacturer spec (tin tents).

 

[Smiffy]

I think there is some confusion as to how vehicles over 3.5t impose towing weights
With arctic's of any size the trailer will still have to be plated for the maximum the trailer can weigh. However the combined axle weights will be less than the mam meaning some load has to be imposed on the unit.
The equivalent of this would be if ifor produced a trailer with a 3500kg mam but only a 3300kg combined axle weight therefore to reach full capacity 200kg would have to be imposed on the tow vehicle

 

[V8Druid]

im with Justme on this, they weigh the axles otherwise a mini artic couldnt be driven on a car licence with a 10 ton trailer.

Pretty sure VOSA weigh noseweight as well to see if its within the manufacturer spec (tin tents).

we ain't talking artics though Fred ... we're discussing 3.5t trailers with over run brakes, attached by either a ball or ring coupling - not a 5th wheel, legislated to weigh no more than 3500kgs MGW/MAM ... mini artics are designed to share their load with the prime mover and form an integral part of the vehicle as a whole, with each axle taking a nominated portion of the overall MGW/MAM

All coupling manufacturers fit a plate detailing the type approved 'S' & 'D' values for max nose and max towing capacities

 

[Bri963]

From www.gov.org, briefly, the GVW as marked on the manufacturers’ trailer chassis plate can’t be exceeded. Think that’s authoritative enough.

 

[Canal Navvy]

From www.gov.org, briefly, the GVW as marked on the manufacturers’ trailer chassis plate can’t be exceeded. Think that’s authoritative enough.

Looks a bit too American to be relevant

 

[Justme]

we ain't talking artics though Fred ... we're discussing 3.5t trailers with over run brakes, attached by either a ball or ring coupling - not a 5th wheel, legislated to weigh no more than 3500kgs MGW/MAM ... mini artics are designed to share their load with the prime mover and form an integral part of the vehicle as a whole, with each axle taking a nominated portion of the overall MGW/MAM

All coupling manufacturers fit a plate detailing the type approved 'S' & 'D' values for max nose and max towing capacities

We are only talking about the nose weight being applied here not tonnes.

While coupled up the nose weight is on the car & would come off the cars MAM amount or it would be over loaded if not accounted for. You cant argue that fact.
If its on the car it cant also be on the trailer. Again thats a fact.
If its not on the trailer then the trailer can use all of it MLPM in addition to the nose weight.

The trailer would be weighed coupled up & via its own wheels.

I have had this confirmed by the DVSA in the past but to satisfy you lot I have put in another request to the tech line to get it in writing.
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