so ..... basically they're bust - - - continued

[Smiffy]

You have to pay the customer for their permits to work on their behalf?! And then I assume you bill them back for these costs?! WTF!!!

Yes.
I think it is done to stop companies applying for permits they don't necessarily need, and jamming the system up.
Also a permit only lasts 2 months. So long term jobs you have to reapply for the permit repeatedly.
They aren't task specific though. So you have the client based permit system and then your own site based permit system. So for example I did a road overhaul package. I applied for a ground penetrating permit to cover the road. Then in the site office I maintained a a paper based permit to dig system for each task/day.
And at the end of each month all internal permits get uploaded to a portal where I presume a.i checks to make sure everything seems legit.

 

[hiluxman]

Ffs, what is the actual cost of a proper hour of graft on site by the time you've done all that s**t.

 

[Giles]

Is this airside on an airport or just on a road? Ffs world has gone mad I used to do a bit on nhs sites for some of the big Civiis firms but when it started taking a day or two in paperwork to hand dig one 3 foot long trench etc I was done with it and that was 15 years ago

 

[Brendan]

Yeah.
You have to rely on bulking jobs together and for small jobs you can cut time by reusing sections of rams. But if you don't change it up enough or make it to generic they will reject the permit.
Each permit application cost £100 and there are about 20 different permits. You can require multiple for a single task, so a sign post is £300 in permits. A pothole requires hotworks permits if you need line marking or hotbox so another £100. Same again for fire alarm isolation and loads of different electrical permits.
The Pas survey is best part of £1000 per day so if you only have one location to survey you have spent nearly 2 grand before you get on site.

And they reject the permits for fun. I had all mine rejected the other day as they decided a line had to be included in all rams to say the permits must be logged on and off at the beginning and end of the shift. Before you just had to say you would obtain a permit. They didn't communicate this. I had 4 jobs rejected with a note on them. So that's 4x £300 in rejected permits in one day.

I had a shift cancelled as I had a job that covered 2 zones so required 2 hot works permits. Hot works permits require an equipment inspection prior to issue. They inspected the equipment but only signed off one permit. I rang up to activate a permit on phase 2 and got told I needed to get kit inspected, despite them already inspecting it and it being on constant use for the previous 5nights at the other end of the road. And noone available to carry out the inspection.
Oh and you can't pre book inspections. You phone up at the beginning of the shift and they will tell you if they have availability to do it.

So that must mean some 1 or 2 day jobs can cost more in permits than the actual labour, does this sort of thing carry over from the high risk sites to normal big sites or stuff like hs2

 

[Smiffy]

Is this airside on an airport or just on a road? Ffs world has gone mad I used to do a bit on nhs sites for some of the big Civiis firms but when it started taking a day or two in paperwork to hand dig one 3 long trench etc I was done with it and that was 15 years ago

Its blanket rules. It doesn't matter if you are resurfacing the runway or repairing a post and rail fence on the bit of community enrichment woodland they own a mile away. If the airport authority own the land the same system applies.
I would have to ask colleagues about the rail permit system as I don't do rail.
Of everything i do, airports are the strictest.

Apart from the whole airplane and security thing, there are strict rules resulting from the Dusseldorf airport fire in 1996.

 

[V8Druid]

Yeah.
You have to rely on bulking jobs together and for small jobs you can cut time by reusing sections of rams. But if you don't change it up enough or make it to generic they will reject the permit.
Each permit application cost £100 and there are about 20 different permits. You can require multiple for a single task, so a sign post is £300 in permits. A pothole requires hotworks permits if you need line marking or hotbox so another £100. Same again for fire alarm isolation and loads of different electrical permits.
The Pas survey is best part of £1000 per day so if you only have one location to survey you have spent nearly 2 grand before you get on site.

And they reject the permits for fun. I had all mine rejected the other day as they decided a line had to be included in all rams to say the permits must be logged on and off at the beginning and end of the shift. Before you just had to say you would obtain a permit. They didn't communicate this. I had 4 jobs rejected with a note on them. So that's 4x £300 in rejected permits in one day.

I had a shift cancelled as I had a job that covered 2 zones so required 2 hot works permits. Hot works permits require an equipment inspection prior to issue. They inspected the equipment but only signed off one permit. I rang up to activate a permit on phase 2 and got told I needed to get kit inspected, despite them already inspecting it and it being on constant use for the previous 5nights at the other end of the road. And noone available to carry out the inspection.
Oh and you can't pre book inspections. You phone up at the beginning of the shift and they will tell you if they have availability to do it.

****ing license to print

 

[Smiffy]

****ing license to print

It's not though because it is all charged for. It just increases turn over. We know how many permits we will need for each job. Plus an allowance for rejected permits. Plus admin time. It's a separate item on every quote we send out. Obviously adjusted for the facility we are working at. All the companies know this. The only reason I can think that they charge is to stop people flooding the system with unnecessary permits and to put more effort into doing it right the first time.
The prices charged for some facilities due to the rigmarole of working there seems extortionate. But when you break down the cost of operating in these environments it doesn't equate to profit.
They are absolutely impossible environments to operate in as a small company.

 

[Storrsy]

South West civils firm Roadform files administration notice

£31m turnover contractor lodges court notice

www.constructionenquirer.com

 

[V8Druid]

ECO funding cliff edge sinks insulation contractor

92 jobs axed as South Coast Insulation falls into administration as policy pause hits installers

www.constructionenquirer.com

" The Trustmark-accredited energy efficiency provider was heavily reliant on government-funded domestic retrofit programmes, with the Great British Insulation Scheme and Energy Company Obligation providing the bulk of its revenues.
Installation volumes fell sharply in recent months, squeezing margins and cash flow.
The decisive blow came as the sector faced uncertainty over what replaces GBIS and ECO beyond March 2026. ........Following a government consultation on the future of retrofit support, energy suppliers paused new commitments, effectively cutting off new work and leaving the company with no forward pipeline " ..... eggs and baskets springs to mind

Miliband’s ambitious Warm Homes Plan arrives with the public and industry’s confidence in retrofit at a low ebb

The embarrassing failures of the ECO scheme have given retrofit a bad name, but its cancellation hit good and bad installers alike. Together, they put the government in a tricky spot to effect a mass roll-out of new energy efficiency measures, reports Daniel Gayne

www.building.co.uk

" It was not ideal, after all, to announce a £15bn investment in the retrofit industry just a week before the public accounts committee (PAC) urged the Serious Fraud Office to launch a probe into that very same sector. ... the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (DESNZ) had its own share of responsibility, having repeatedly delayed the release of the plan. "

 

[V8Druid]

next ?????
" Last year roles were cut at its Central region before the firm announced an £83m pre-tax loss for the year to 30 June 2024 in its latest results.
An Avant Homes spokesperson said: “Our industry continues to navigate challenging times due to the widely reported issues adversely impacting the UK’s housing supply and affecting the output of most house builders.
“In light of this, and as part of our continual review of the business, we have had to make some changes to consolidate our position". "

Job cuts at Avant Homes North East office

Latest redundancies at house builder run by former Persimmon boss Jeff Fairburn

www.constructionenquirer.com

Ardmore turns corner after bruising two years

Group forecasts £11m profit in 2025 after £41m loss and ACL administration

www.constructionenquirer.com

" The London-based contractor has just published delayed statutory results for the year to 30 September 2024, showing a £41m loss on turnover down 16% at £346m.
The result was dragged down by losses on legacy projects, years of remedial works and a £15m adjudication award against Ardmore Construction Limited, the group’s former general contracting business, which was placed into administration after the year-end ........ "

 

[V8Druid]

'nother one gone

More than 50 jobs saved after administrators appointed at facades firm FK Group

£100m business filed notice of intent to appoint administrator four weeks ago

www.building.co.uk

" In the run-up to the administration, BTG said 57 staff had lost their jobs but a further 54 jobs had been transferred to Keenan Holdings, an aluminium and glazing manufacturer and installer based at the same Altrincham address as FK Group. " along with 98% of the assets, no doubt
oh yeh ..... " Joint administrator David Hopkisn said: “This is a significant restructuring of the Group’s assets and operations " bye bye creditors hopes

summat fishy in this write up - £5m floating between various 'arms'/co.s/subsidiaries??

 

[V8Druid]

Historic contractor Jerram Falkus set to go into administration

£50m turnover firm has been in business since 1884

www.building.co.uk

 

[V8Druid]

Problem Carillion job that helped put firm into financial black hole was bid at profit margin of 0%

First phase of Battersea Power Station scheme was priced to make no money, financial regulator's judgment into contractor's former boss finds

www.building.co.uk

Former Carillion chief handed £237,000 fine by financial regulator for his role in ‘misleading statements’ issued by company

FCA imposes penalty on Richard Howson who was chief executive of bust contractor for more than five years

www.building.co.uk

Carillion’s Howson hit with £238,000 FCA fine

The former chief executive of Carillion has been heavily fined by the financial services regulator.

www.theconstructionindex.co.uk

" The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) has fined Richard Howson £237,700 for his part in misleading statements issued by Carillion ahead of its collapse in January 2018.
As group chief executive, Howson was aware of serious financial troubles in Carillion’s UK construction business. He failed to reflect this in company announcements or alert its board and audit committee, leading to poor oversight, .......Richard Adam and .... Zafar Khan. They were fined £232,800 and £138,900, respectively, in January 2026 ... also "

no bloody jail time though Fraud was once considered a more serious offence than murder in the UK with appropriate sentencing meted out

 

[V8Druid]

interesting read ........

A tale of two very different collapses: what Carillion (still) and Jerram Falkus tell us

Events more than a dozen years apart, show how fraught the building game remains for many, writes Dave Rogers

www.building.co.uk

" Jerram Falkus called in administrators on the day it emerged that Carillion signed up for a 0% profit margin on the first phase of Battersea Power Station redevelopment, which has provoked an interesting response online. "

 

[Ivor]

Collapsed contractor chasing Persimmon for £2.5m

Administrators for a Devon contractor that collapsed after major clients withheld payment for completed work are pursuing housebuilder Persimmon for

www.constructionnews.co.uk

 

[V8Druid]

Collapsed contractor chasing Persimmon for £2.5m

Administrators for a Devon contractor that collapsed after major clients withheld payment for completed work are pursuing housebuilder Persimmon for

www.constructionnews.co.uk

if it's invoiced, undisputed and due they'll get it ..... sadly it'll do now't for the company that collapsed because of it though

 

[TiltyShaun]

if it's invoiced, undisputed and due they'll get it ..... sadly it'll do now't for the company that collapsed because of it though

Doesn’t sound like it was undisputed!!

 

[Ivor]

Persimmon have form for this type of improvement to its own profitability

 

[V8Druid]

Persimmon have form for this type of improvement to its own profitability

I once had similar dealings with a firm called Constructors Tern - mid 80,s -with a similar M.O. ... cost me a Barrister and judge in chambers fees ... worked though .. judge locked up the three directors who turned up (subpoenaed to appear) until he had the full £35k on his bench and all our costs .... was a lot of bucks back then
they went tits up the following week
had a mate who got taken for over £100k ... I begged him to do what I did, 'fore they took him, but wouldn't listen to reason ... cost him his biz and his house

 

[Smiffy]

Unfathomable how this has happened, they literally charge for empty space

Car park firm NCP collapses with nearly 700 jobs at risk

The car park operator says demand for parking has not recovered to pre-Covid levels, as its administrators look to sell the business.

www.bbc.co.uk