Gunns Contractors Ltd

[Brendan]

I don't do any sort of paving works anymore, don't waste my time even looking at them, too many clowns round this way still doing block paving for around £50m2 all in.
Biggest issue I have is when it's a job for a couple of people I really struggle to get other workers and begrudge paying agencies a massive markup

 

[DaveDCB]

What’s most annoying Ollie is that you could almost guarantee that the main contractor would of always knocked you money off regardless of how good a job you did! Some people just can’t help themselves! Be interesting to see what finnish they get afterwards!
Iv only had one person refuse to pay me a full days hire - they threw 1000t of stone at me a day to spread and level ready for tar, no levels just kerbs to work too! I was sub20yrs old and never pushed that much out with a 3cx before, yet alone to Finnish level!!
I learned a lot that day!!

 

[Gunners]

What’s most annoying Ollie is that you could almost guarantee that the main contractor would of always knocked you money off regardless of how good a job you did!

It was an odd situation Dave, I have done 3 jobs for them before and whilst they have always been a little "can you just" and "while you are here" about things, they have been good to work for and haven't messed about with money before. This job started off fine, although there was an archaeological watch brief thrown at me last minute (although we agreed a rate should we be delayed), but as things went on, before I had even finished, there was suddenly this 6mm tolerance thrown in and they started refusing my work before I had completed it! Suddenly I needed a laser grade box, tractors etc which they knew full well I didn't own and had no intention of using! The job was worth 8K to me - someone with that kit would have been a lot more expensive!
Then there was a meeting on site with them do discuss this tolerance. By then I had completed the work to my satisfaction and we walked the job while they checked it. They started misreading the tape measure, saying 25mm when it was maybe 11mm? The attitude was very negative, it was my fault for the extra stone, I would have to warranty the job if the top carpet moved due to the extra depth of grit (that they ordered by the way!) It was a right stitch up! I held my ground, explained that using their maths, I would never have had enough stone anyway and that was before an extra path was added! The response was they didn't use 2.2t per m3 (which I had discussed with them before in a separate off hand conversation about working out quantities) They used 2.1t per m3. Well guess what, that didn't add up either! Due to a lorry not delivering a proper 20t, I was short by over 8t on the MUGA alone, and that was before the 18m long path that needed another 10t! This is basic schoolboy stuff, and they insisted it was my digging!
Not to be put off, I wrote a very strong email to them detailing how these things weren't my problem, and requesting in writing, the 6mm tolerance which they were quoting from sports England - but I couldn't find any evidence of. On the back of this, we came up with this compromise of splitting it 50%. A fine turf contractor came in for the day with a small tractor and a levelling bar that you could drag around by hand. These guys were actually surprised they were asked to sort it and had been told it was a lot worse!!!? They started off with the tractor but this was causing more damage than good, so ended up just pulling this bar around. What they did do though was take a lot of the small stones off and use more dust to get it to where it needed to be. They also didn't vibro roll it (which I was told it had to be) as it was making the stone go down in waves. Dead rolling it solved that and having seen what they did, I think I could have done similar myself. But when you're told your work is a million miles off, you don't think it will be an easy fix like that.
Effectively we fell out over 4mm as they wanted 6mm and I achieved 10mm. I've been paid, made a little bit of money on it but it cost me a lot more time and headache. Lesson learned. I'm not perfect and have got a lot to learn, we all have, especially when doing something new, but I'm no idiot and it really showed me that despite working extra long days, weekends, as hard as you like - if the jobs priced wrong it wont work out. Oh, and then they tried to offer me a job working direct for them as "it looked like I was struggling with running my own business" - which I was - due to their lack of understanding about how much you actually get when you order an 8 wheeler of stone!
Here's some more pictures from the job I will never forget!

 

[Furniss]

It was an odd situation Dave, I have done 3 jobs for them before and whilst they have always been a little "can you just" and "while you are here" about things, they have been good to work for and haven't messed about with money before. This job started off fine, although there was an archaeological watch brief thrown at me last minute (although we agreed a rate should we be delayed),but as things went on, before I had even finished, there was suddenly this 6mm tolerance thrown in and they started refusing my work before I had completed it! Suddenly I needed a laser grade box, tractors etc which they knew full well I didn't own and had no intention of using! The job was worth 8K to me - someone with that kit would have been a lot more expensive!
Then there was a meeting on site with them do discuss this tolerance. By then I had completed the work to my satisfaction and we walked the job while they checked it. They started misreading the tape measure, saying 25mm when it was maybe 11mm? The attitude was very negative, it was my fault for the extra stone, I would have to warranty the job if the top carpet moved due to the extra depth of grit (that they ordered by the way!) It was a right stitch up! I held my ground, explained that using their maths, I would never have had enough stone anyway and that was before an extra path was added! The response was they didn't use 2.2t per m3 (which I had discussed with them before in a separate off hand conversation about working out quantities) They used 2.1t per m3. Well guess what, that didn't add up either! Due to a lorry not delivering a proper 20t, I was short by over 8t on the MUGA alone, and that was before the 18m long path that needed another 10t! This is basic schoolboy stuff, and they insisted it was my digging!
Not to be put off, I wrote a very strong email to them detailing how these things weren't my problem, and requesting in writing, the 6mm tolerance which they were quoting from sports England - but I couldn't find any evidence of. On the back of this, we came up with this compromise of splitting it 50%. A fine turf contractor came in for the day with a small tractor and a levelling bar that you could drag around by hand. These guys were actually surprised they were asked to sort it and had been told it was a lot worse!!!? They started off with the tractor but this was causing more damage than good, so ended up just pulling this bar around. What they did do though was take a lot of the small stones off and use more dust to get it to where it needed to be. They also didn't vibro roll it (which I was told it had to be) as it was making the stone go down in waves. Dead rolling it solved that and having seen what they did, I think I could have done similar myself. But when you're told your work is a million miles off, you don't think it will be an easy fix like that.
Effectively we fell out over 4mm as they wanted 6mm and I achieved 10mm. I've been paid, made a little bit of money on it but it cost me a lot more time and headache. Lesson learned. I'm not perfect and have got a lot to learn, we all have, especially when doing something new, but I'm no idiot and it really showed me that despite working extra long days, weekends, as hard as you like - if the jobs priced wrong it wont work out. Oh, and then they tried to offer me a job working direct for them as "it looked like I was struggling with running my own business" - which I was - due to their lack of understanding about how much you actually get when you order an 8 wheeler of stone!
Here's some more pictures from the job I will never forget!

All sounds really odd, misreading the tape measure etc , those tolerances seem pretty tough to achieve which might explain why you weren't given them at the offset .. or maybe they weren't aware of themselves at that stage ?
Onwards and upwards, when you see the s**t work that goes on they should value a good contractor who makes every effort, not take the piss

 

[Bri963]

Hang on - you were that bad but they offered you a job? Think they might have been trying to push you under so you’d be desperate for a job. Well done standing your ground!

 

[JD450A]

Hang on - you were that bad but they offered you a job? Think they might have been trying to push you under so you’d be desperate for a job. Well done standing your ground!

Agreed.... Want some beatings.

 

[DaveDCB]

Erm why were they using a tape measure....?! Laser on a flat plate staff would be a fairer way to check?
I guess regarding quantities lesson is if your on a price you provide everything or it’s day rate. Plus I don’t believe they haven’t allowed for any extra material?! I always add 10% rounded up as a minimum!

 

[DaveDCB]

Ps, don’t feel bad that your mini hasn’t been used much lately.. just checked in on my LiveLink... “EngineOff for 77d 2hrs 46m”

 

[Gunners]

Ps, don’t feel bad that your mini hasn’t been used much lately.. just checked in on my LiveLink... “EngineOff for 77d 2hrs 46m”

Dont want to sell it do you?

 

[DaveDCB]

Dont want to sell it do you?

Everything is forsale.... but at the right price to be fair I have so much work lined up for it I’d have to go buy another one within weeks of selling it!

 

[Brendan]

I find using the compacted tarmac, spreadage calculation of 420/depth of mm a more accurate way of estimating stone quantities, better to over estimate than try and add tons on.

For instance if you had 300m2 of area to stone up by 100mm
420/100 = 4.2m2 per ton of stone so 300/4.2= 71.43t on type 1

If using 2.2t per M3 of stone your calculation would be 66t

I know alot of people especially in paving, work off 2t/M3 which would put you miles out at 60t

 

[Danny]

Hi Ollie,

Sounds like youve been having abit of a rough time lately, agro you dont need when your on a 'day rate basis' im sure if you had priced the job it would of been well within tolerances.

Life is sent to test us, if business was easy we would all be doing it

Talking about machines not moving one of my 13tonners hasnt left the yard for 225 days due to jobs being canceled

 

[Gunners]

I find using the compacted tarmac, spreadage calculation of 420/depth of mm a more accurate way of estimating stone quantities, better to over estimate than try and add tons on.
I know alot of people especially in paving, work off 2t/M3 which would put you miles out at 60t

That's an interesting way of calculating stone, not one I have heard of before. I'm always up for new ways of doing things. I started off using 1.9t per m3 which I discovered was a little light at times, but have been pretty good at 2t/m3 for the last few years. Anyone else have a better way of doing it? Or come to a different answer on the 300m2 area at 100mm deep.

Talking about machines not moving one of my 13tonners hasnt left the yard for 225 days due to jobs being canceled

Jesus Danny, I hope the others are out earning!

 

[Brendan]

That's an interesting way of calculating stone, not one I have heard of before. I'm always up for new ways of doing things. I started off using 1.9t per m3 which I discovered was a little light at times, but have been pretty good at 2t/m3 for the last few years. Anyone else have a better way of doing it? Or come to a different answer on the 300m2 area at 100mm deep.



Jesus Danny, I hope the others are out earning!

I found for small paving stuff and backfills the 2x depth worked ok. The calculation came from a tarmacer that covered large roads/contracts where the difference between 2x and spreadage calculator is literally 2+ 8 wheel loads different.

Was always told a ton of quarried type 1 compacted would cover 4.2m2 at 100mm which is in keeping with the 420 calc where as the X2 calc gives you 840kg for the same 4.2m area

Suppose the difference comes from solid material Vs loose so a raw unbroken M3 of granite would weigh around 2.7t whereas a crushed and uncompacted M3 could be around 2t

 

[T whiting]

That's an interesting way of calculating stone, not one I have heard of before. I'm always up for new ways of doing things. I started off using 1.9t per m3 which I discovered was a little light at times, but have been pretty good at 2t/m3 for the last few years. Anyone else have a better way of doing it? Or come to a different answer on the 300m2 area at 100mm deep.



Jesus Danny, I hope the others are out earning!

I normally order stone at 2.5t per cube then noones looking at you when your short I normally try to do a back of a fag packet check when there's a couple of loads left to come in to make sure I'm not too far wrong

I'd be looking at 75t for your 300m2

The 6mm tolerance seems very tight especially as that stone looks like it has very few fines in it. I'd normally beat death out of something like that then trim it down to get the best tolerance then a light vibe roll and a couple of passes dead rolling to make it pretty

 

[Gunners]

The 6mm tolerance seems very tight especially as that stone looks like it has very few fines in it. I'd normally beat death out of something like that then trim it down to get the best tolerance then a light vibe roll and a couple of passes dead rolling to make it pretty

In hindsight, I do wonder if over filling it, then trimming off would have resulted in a more consistent final roll. The final layer had 50mm of 6mm limestone to dust, which created its own problems as the limestone was crumbling under vibration rolling and creating these waves. I rolled it in every dammed direction I could but it wouldn't settle, just kept pushing it around. Then a big rain storm hit and washed all the fines down, leaving me with just the 6mm stones to play with.
Keen to hear other peoples methods of achieving this kind of result, I'm always open to new ideas and certainly don't know everything.

 

[JD450A]

Keen to hear other peoples methods of achieving this kind of result, I'm always open to new ideas and certainly don't know everything.

Don't get involved in any job with a tolerance of less than 10mm

 

[diggerjones]

Don't get involved in any job with a tolerance of less than 10mm

I work to the nearest inch.

 

[Hg2702]

I remember putting steels in for a retaining wall and getting the tips within 6mm my old man wasn’t interested as he couldn’t see it in inches

 

[Antony Holmes]

In hindsight, I do wonder if over filling it, then trimming off would have resulted in a more consistent final roll. The final layer had 50mm of 6mm limestone to dust, which created its own problems as the limestone was crumbling under vibration rolling and creating these waves. I rolled it in every dammed direction I could but it wouldn't settle, just kept pushing it around. Then a big rain storm hit and washed all the fines down, leaving me with just the 6mm stones to play with.
Keen to hear other peoples methods of achieving this kind of result, I'm always open to new ideas and certainly don't know everything.

i have done a couple of jobs like this graded with the level bar on the digger with laser receiver on it then tractor level bar and then just dead roll you will never keep 6mm down still with the vib on i have seen it done with 6mm clean that's even worse like grading water