Artic Steer / AWS Backhoe Loaders - Anybody Run One

[V8Druid]

Do they still build those things Graeme?^^

regrettably not Bert AFAIK ... the French military had 'em and I think a few made it to the UK MOD too ..... would be a case of a regular search of everywhere, in pursuit of one o' they ... some tool though

 

[Jimbo69]

Jimbo, - I take it that the fitter increased the max governed rpm on the distributor fuel pump? if so did this do long term harm to the engine, I see some specs of the 2CX quoting different max speeds, but none above about 21.5, seems to depend on the age of the unit.

Increased revs to just over 2500rpm, think the max was just over 2000rpm before it was opened up. This was on a 2002 airmaster, think it was changed at about 8000 hours without any major issues and it didn’t have an easy life.

 

[Old Operator]

As to the 40 kmh /25 mph - I seem to remember there was an overdrive on some of the MF TDL's & this speed was a selling point, does this mean some of the JCB's boasting 41 kmh have suspension? (3CX Contractor / 3CX Compact). Probably best to remove the sticker - I notice the German / Italian machines have it - so maybe a continental limit?
Bri - I did not think to use the unit as a drott on hard ground, use backhoe with maybe ripper tooth in hard areas then move loosened with front. I doubt the moonscape job will now happen as derelict land grant suspended just now! If so he is best to buy drott / dozer for just this. Might have offered to fill a couple of the smaller pits with above idea - but cannot see it happening just now. Have been following 'Gold Rush' on Discovery - amazed how they use front end loaders widely out there

 

[BertB.]

As to the 40 kmh /25 mph - I seem to remember there was an overdrive on some of the MF TDL's & this speed was a selling point, does this mean some of the JCB's boasting 41 kmh have suspension? (3CX Contractor / 3CX Compact). Probably best to remove the sticker - I notice the German / Italian machines have it - so maybe a continental limit?
Bri - I did not think to use the unit as a drott on hard ground, use backhoe with maybe ripper tooth in hard areas then move loosened with front. I doubt the moonscape job will now happen as derelict land grant suspended just now! If so he is best to buy drott / dozer for just this. Might have offered to fill a couple of the smaller pits with above idea - but cannot see it happening just now. Have been following 'Gold Rush' on Discovery - amazed how they use front end loaders widely out there

Many of the backhoes over here like Cat, Case, and Deere have top speeds just a little over 40km/hr and some of the ducks apparently. They have a sort of suspension the loader arm circuits are connected to an accumulator they ride a hell of a lot smoother than they use to I can safely tell you.

 

[V8Druid]

Many of the backhoes over here like Cat, Case, and Deere have top speeds just a little over 40km/hr and some of the ducks apparently. They have a sort of suspension the loader arm circuits are connected to an accumulator they ride a hell of a lot smoother than they use to I can safely tell you.

in the UK Bert the road axles, carrying the load of the vehicle, must be sprung, for over 20 MPH [32.5Km/Hr] highway travel, from memory

 

[powercom]

We have a 2cx and it is a bit ponderous and slow on the road , that said I would not be that keen on doing 25mph in it with it unless you had front bucket /boom smooth ride fitted . ours has not got it on as a result if you have buckets in the front and it starts to bounce while roading especially coming down hill it can get pretty scary pretty quick.
Its a handy enough tool on small site with the addition of a set of quick attach forks , moving pallets of stone , blocks and brick is easy it must be getting near its max load though as some block packs make it a little lite on the back end ! its also pretty nimble and digging footings , for small extensions walls etc and loading the spoil direct into skips again very handy no need for dumper.
I guess underrated would be the best way to describe them but it would seem that the current trend of mini excavator for everything mentality would take some turning around , Alot of people on sites these days have little idea of what can be done with wheeled digger and decent operator
The Bigger 4ws or artic machines seem extremely capable in there place they will be weapon on soft ground , large site, lots of front loading etc, but you would have some problems getting them in the gate on some construction sites , and an average house extension at least here in the UK would i think be impossible as small they are not.

 

[Old Operator]

Thanks all, the 20 mph unsprung limit is actually an EU thing! it caused the re design of the Smalley 5 towable in '84 - making them bring out the 5W with a sprung retractable axle, mind you this was designed for towing at way above 25mph! It seems it is one of those EU things that are nominally there. I was sort of aware of the smooth ride accumulator thing - seems a good idea if it dampens 'sympathetic oscillation' but have never yet driven one with it fitted.
I gather the 2CX never achieved the sales the maker hoped, because it's cost is so close to a 3CX that the bigger machine seemed better value - unless you really needed a compact machine. Also I understand both the short lived 'Midi CX' & the new 3CX Compact were / are ways of offering a scaled down unit at a more competitive price. The Midi had a removable rear hoe allowing the tractor to power other rear implements & have wider use (a JCB idea going back to the 2B / 2D)
This Midi came out in the teeth of the '08 slump - seemed to sell more in the USA than UK, Mini CX even more short lived.
Anybody seen underneath a 2CX / worked on one? is there a rear 4 speed transaxle - with an open shaft linking to the Torque / power shuttle reverser box on the bell housing? Are they tight space wise & thus more difficult than a 3CX. (The F-N-R shuttle packs often fail at about 7K hours on the latter)
Powercon - you describe exactly how I saw using a 2CX as a one man band - going with a good used to build business up from nothing much recent. Slow road speed it's only real drawback. Re this vs a mini digger only other bad point is, 2CX = second vehicle to tax / insure ( given that I still need a van / pickup)

 

[Smiffy]

Thanks all, the 20 mph unsprung limit is actually an EU thing! it caused the re design of the Smalley 5 towable in '84 - making them bring out the 5W with a sprung retractable axle, mind you this was designed for towing at way above 25mph! It seems it is one of those EU things that are nominally there. I was sort of aware of the smooth ride accumulator thing - seems a good idea if it dampens 'sympathetic oscillation' but have never yet driven one with it fitted.
I gather the 2CX never achieved the sales the maker hoped, because it's cost is so close to a 3CX that the bigger machine seemed better value - unless you really needed a compact machine. Also I understand both the short lived 'Midi CX' & the new 3CX Compact were / are ways of offering a scaled down unit at a more competitive price. The Midi had a removable rear hoe allowing the tractor to power other rear implements & have wider use (a JCB idea going back to the 2B / 2D)
This Midi came out in the teeth of the '08 slump - seemed to sell more in the USA than UK, Mini CX even more short lived.
Anybody seen underneath a 2CX / worked on one? is there a rear 4 speed transaxle - with an open shaft linking to the Torque / power shuttle reverser box on the bell housing? Are they tight space wise & thus more difficult than a 3CX. (The F-N-R shuttle packs often fail at about 7K hours on the latter)
Powercon - you describe exactly how I saw using a 2CX as a one man band - going with a good used to build business up from nothing much recent. Slow road speed it's only real drawback. Re this vs a mini digger only other bad point is, 2CX = second vehicle to tax / insure ( given that I still need a van / pickup)

Every other European country has over ridden the speed rules we have the slowest speed limit for an unsprung setup I believe with many now being 65k

 

[powercom]

Thanks all, the 20 mph unsprung limit is actually an EU thing! it caused the re design of the Smalley 5 towable in '84 - making them bring out the 5W with a sprung retractable axle, mind you this was designed for towing at way above 25mph! It seems it is one of those EU things that are nominally there. I was sort of aware of the smooth ride accumulator thing - seems a good idea if it dampens 'sympathetic oscillation' but have never yet driven one with it fitted.
I gather the 2CX never achieved the sales the maker hoped, because it's cost is so close to a 3CX that the bigger machine seemed better value - unless you really needed a compact machine. Also I understand both the short lived 'Midi CX' & the new 3CX Compact were / are ways of offering a scaled down unit at a more competitive price. The Midi had a removable rear hoe allowing the tractor to power other rear implements & have wider use (a JCB idea going back to the 2B / 2D)
This Midi came out in the teeth of the '08 slump - seemed to sell more in the USA than UK, Mini CX even more short lived.
Anybody seen underneath a 2CX / worked on one? is there a rear 4 speed transaxle - with an open shaft linking to the Torque / power shuttle reverser box on the bell housing? Are they tight space wise & thus more difficult than a 3CX. (The F-N-R shuttle packs often fail at about 7K hours on the latter)
Powercon - you describe exactly how I saw using a 2CX as a one man band - going with a good used to build business up from nothing much recent. Slow road speed it's only real drawback. Re this vs a mini digger only other bad point is, 2CX = second vehicle to tax / insure ( given that I still need a van / pickup)

I think the smalley thing would have nothing to do with it being a digger as it was when on road effectively a trailer so it would be towing regs i guess

Yes on 2cx prop shaft front and rear from the transmission and drop box not much room on them to work but enough I would guess and yes the acumulator does just absorb that bounce from the lift arms , as said our 2cx does not have it but i have driven an mf ( fermec ) 865 with iit on and it was a big help , that machine had the direct drive 5th gear and could fairly move along.

In terms of a 2cx as business , yes I would think it could work the risk is that younger people just dont appreciate the concept and what you could do with it , so maybe you would need to sell that aspect a bit more , after all the 3cx is rare thing these days to go to hole digger is definitely a mini digger of varying size , 20 years ago it was a 3cx that said you could still advertise your self as "mini digger" and operator hire and when people see what you could do it would sell its self you would be fairly unique as opposed to just another mini excavator hire co .
However you have to accept that in terms of space you can still fit a 2.5 ton mini where you cant fit a 2cx in so horses for courses on some jobs I guess but a 2cx could certainly do most mini excavator jobs and then some .

 

[BertB.]

Just some pictures from my side of the pond. These days backhoes seem to be relegated to just utility work as most jobs are done with mini and midi-excavators and to see one actually digging is becoming more and more rare and when they do its usually a small little trench or a little hole for a directional drill to start or finish. I wonder though if things would of been different if the manufacturers like Deere John, Case, and Crapapillar would of offered side shift like you guys have over there?

 

[V8Druid]

interesting de-coiler idea that Bert

 

[BertB.]

This was an option I was looking at last fall to start my business its a L45 Kubota so its about 45h.p. and has about a 10 foot digging depth, the backhoe is also detachable like the JCB version and a 3 point hitch can be put on. It also has a pto and hydraulics to the rear like a regular tractor. The loader features a skid-steer style quick hitch enabling different attachments for the front that you could also put on a skid-steer loader. Kubota makes a loader/backhoe one size bigger called a M59 and has much the same features. But for whatever reason Kubota won't offer a cab so you have to go the aftermarket to get one for another $6,000 or $7,000. For a time Kubota had a line of articulated loaders and you could get a backhoe attachment for them the largest being the R520 with a sideshift. They've since redesigned the line and a backhoe isn't an option anymore due to overhung engine on the rear axle.
https://www.rockanddirt.com/aucsearch?method=detail&id=1307273&type=E

 

[Old Operator]

Nice pics Bert! Thanks - I did look at Kubota but as far as I could tell the slow top speed put me off, & remember reading of the artic steer model, likewise slow. I seem to remember Yanmar offering something like this at one time, perhaps not ever over here. Think this was also not fast travel. A Terramite used, once was for sale here, again needs transporting. Deere made a 2CX equivalent but only 12 mph. A Czech firm made a small TBL range sold under the name 'Earthworks' here -was taken over by Bobcat & promptly shut down. In the UK Thwaites & Lewis Badger once made similar, the Thwaites had issues & both were slow top speed
I did think some of the TBL makers were offering side shift in the States, marketing them as 'city' TBL's?

As to the use of TBL's some territories love them some not over here. Eastern Europe love them & they are still quite widely used in both Spain & Italy. Our full size ones were loaded up with all extras, often not needed. 4WD, Extending Dipper, 4 in 1, Added front bucket mounted forks (awful to use) became the std & so they went so costly that folks started using much cheaper mini diggers. The Spanish often do not bother with the 4 in 1 & not always extendahoe. I had a half share in an old 3C that had none of above & was amazed how much work we got for it (was finally sold in '06 when the self build developments it was really bought for were complete) I alternated between this & modern loaded up 3CX's - found the latter very rear heavy & could not pick & carry with rear hoe - moving transformers / junk as I did with the 3C. Also I think the smaller a machine gets - the more irrelevant a 4 in 1 becomes, as it means smaller loading capacity & std. bucket fills more easily. A rear thumb I would have on any hoe. Can handle boulders, stumps - almost making up for the 4 in 1 & much cheaper!

Powercon - do you use the 2CX on your own jobs - or hire it out at a rate? or anyone else for that matter? limited research suggests between £250 & £300 per day - very dependant on area of UK, for an older backhoe loader on private jobs - weather compact or Std. machine. About £200 per day for a mini digger (both operated)
Source ebay digger & driver rates.

 

[BertB.]

interesting de-coiler idea that Bert

It really worked quite well it was a lot easier to use than dangling a spinner from the bucket on a strap or having to maneuver a reel trailer around stuff but sadly it never really caught on with any other utility crews. I think if anybody had any forsight they would put a hydraulic quick hitch on the loader end so the backhoe could switch back and forth from a set of forks to a bucket to this cable reel roller and get some better use out of the machine.

 

[BertB.]

Nice pics Bert! Thanks - I did look at Kubota but as far as I could tell the slow top speed put me off, & remember reading of the artic steer model, likewise slow. I seem to remember Yanmar offering something like this at one time, perhaps not ever over here. Think this was also not fast travel. A Terramite used, once was for sale here, again needs transporting. Deere made a 2CX equivalent but only 12 mph. A Czech firm made a small TBL range sold under the name 'Earthworks' here -was taken over by Bobcat & promptly shut down. In the UK Thwaites & Lewis Badger once made similar, the Thwaites had issues & both were slow top speed
I did think some of the TBL makers were offering side shift in the States, marketing them as 'city' TBL's?

As to the use of TBL's some territories love them some not over here. Eastern Europe love them & they are still quite widely used in both Spain & Italy. Our full size ones were loaded up with all extras, often not needed. 4WD, Extending Dipper, 4 in 1, Added front bucket mounted forks (awful to use) became the std & so they went so costly that folks started using much cheaper mini diggers. The Spanish often do not bother with the 4 in 1 & not always extendahoe. I had a half share in an old 3C that had none of above & was amazed how much work we got for it (was finally sold in '06 when the self build developments it was really bought for were complete) I alternated between this & modern loaded up 3CX's - found the latter very rear heavy & could not pick & carry with rear hoe - moving transformers / junk as I did with the 3C. Also I think the smaller a machine gets - the more irrelevant a 4 in 1 becomes, as it means smaller loading capacity & std. bucket fills more easily. A rear thumb I would have on any hoe. Can handle boulders, stumps - almost making up for the 4 in 1 & much cheaper!

Powercon - do you use the 2CX on your own jobs - or hire it out at a rate? or anyone else for that matter? limited research suggests between £250 & £300 per day - very dependant on area of UK, for an older backhoe loader on private jobs - weather compact or Std. machine. About £200 per day for a mini digger (both operated)
Source ebay digger & driver rates.

Yeah I recall on and off since the early '90's Bobcat having a line of loader backhoes. I remember they had an articulated one they marketed for a short while and again another center pivot machine, then that line disappeared then all of the sudden they came out with a 4x4x4 type of set up. But since Doosan took over I haven't seen them try and market any loader/backhoes here. Most of them have been smaller machines with not telescopic dipper and they would have 2 or 3 models in the line usually with a Bobcat branded quick coupler that isn't compatible with any other style or make and of dubious quality. Then of course you get the skid-steer mounted backhoe that fits in place of the bucket. Friend of mine had one he said they are terrible to operate and not easy to maneuver around as you have to jump down in to the cab. I frequently see them at auctions and junk yards rotting away amazing anybody still builds them.

I'm not much of a fan of the thumb I think having a proper grab is the only way forward, they always get in the way especially when loading trucks, or when using other attachments as they have a tendency to drift. The only option for me in that regard would be a 4 in 1 style backhoe bucket or have a bucket with the thumb and the thumb cylinders attached to the bucket so when you don't need it, it's easily removed.
The smaller slower road speed backhoes you're talking about are usually slower because of the smaller slower revving engines (at least I think) and because the transmission is hydrostatic so no torque converter or powershift type transmission just oil propulsion I guess you could say.

 

[BertB.]

Some more utility related pictures for you guys from the work I've done over the years and stuff I've encountered in my journey's.

 

[AusDave]

OK. After a note from the Druid I finally registered on here after being a reader for some time. Been a bit quieter on the machinery front over Christmas New Year. Not as much machinery work happens when it's around 40°C ! But being near the beach I do a bit of kite foiling as per pics below. Water temp is currently 25°C so it's pretty lovely in sunny Australia I also sell kite/surf/SUP foil gear so it's all business. Just happens to be fun too!

However back to the subject of this thread, get a Haulotte Multijob if you can find one. I challenge any other one machine to be able to do the variety of work and have the amount of power in the loader and excavator that the Multijob has. Below is a recent pic where I had to move some rocks for the local museum, a voluntary job. Made short work of what they thought may be a major production with the rocks close to 1 tonne each. Helps having the grab. Have had no problems apart from one electronic component failure due to corrosion. Living in a humid salty climate and having it outside in a monsoon a couple of years ago probably contributed. Lives in my big enclosed shed now when it's not on a job.
AusDave

 

[V8Druid]

OK. After a note from the Druid I finally registered ....... it's around 40°C !......... Water temp is currently 25°C .......View attachment 4398View attachment 4399
................ I challenge any other one machine to be able to do the variety of work and have the amount of power in the loader and excavator that the Multijob has. ............
AusDave
View attachment 4400

I am so green Dave ...... multi still looking good

 

[V8Druid]

OK. After a note from the Druid I finally registered on here .........

Nice to see you Dave ..... look forward to your antipodean contributions ..... some of us are still awaiting the 'scenery' [two legged variety] pix you keep promising, from your locale

 

[doobin]

Proper fuckin job Dave. Nice one!