Artic Steer / AWS Backhoe Loaders - Anybody Run One

[Old Operator]

Are there any real world advantages of the above vs the usual 3CX / Case 580 tractor based machines? The UK Army has run Allis Chalmers 4wd loaders with added backhoe, Muir Hill & Bray machines, & later Hydremera machines. I gather the military were looking for something closer in performance to a tracked vehicle but with faster travel & lesser weight for air landing etc.The Italian makers offer them in a slightly smaller size range (Palazzani, Piccini, Venieri, & FAI/Komatsu). The usual work of a 3CX is said to be 80% backhoe & 20% front bucket work. In translation from an Italian forum it says (as best as I can tell) if your usage is closer to 50 / 50 then the Artic machines come into their own. Venieri have dealers in Ireland, north & south, & have supplied machines to both Italian & Bangladesh Armies. I guess another way of asking is what is the 4CX like vs the 3CX on front bucket loading/dozing clearing land etc. Some of the Italian machines can travel at 25 mph between sites (as can the new 3CX Compact)

 

[V8Druid]

Are there any real world advantages of the above vs the usual 3CX / Case 580 tractor based machines? The UK Army has run Allis Chalmers 4wd loaders with added backhoe, Muir Hill & Bray machines, & later Hydremera machines. I gather the military were looking for something closer in performance to a tracked vehicle but with faster travel & lesser weight for air landing etc.The Italian makers offer them in a slightly smaller size range (Palazzani, Piccini, Venieri, & FAI/Komatsu). The usual work of a 3CX is said to be 80% backhoe & 20% front bucket work. In translation from an Italian forum it says (as best as I can tell) if your usage is closer to 50 / 50 then the Artic machines come into their own. Venieri have dealers in Ireland, north & south, & have supplied machines to both Italian & Bangladesh Armies. I guess another way of asking is what is the 4CX like vs the 3CX on front bucket loading/dozing clearing land etc. Some of the Italian machines can travel at 25 mph between sites (as can the new 3CX Compact)

4CX isn't frame steer though Oo, it's 4 WS ..... the Hydrema's frame steering 9 series versions have another advantage too

circa 270 deg.s of backhoe ability .... and damned near 360 using the frame articulation as well .....

IIRC with the frame 'cracked round' they can actually put materials in the front bucket with the back hoe ..... can't find the pic I'm after

but they'm quite a lump

 

[BertB.]

When I first started operating I ran a JCB 217 the North American version of the 4CX at the time it had the typical centerpoint backhoe swing as opposed to the sideshift that you guys are lucky enough to have. It had the 4x4x4 concept on it. It was a pretty gutless machine but the backhoe was pretty smooth to operate as I had to use it a number of times to dig up some pipe. But being pretty young at the time I found it fun to drive around job sites with the crab steer on just for the heck of it. I also had some seat time in a 2CX it was just a plain loader version, whilst working for a short time at a landscaping supply place. The crab steer actually came in handy at times as I could windrow spilled material to help with cleaning up around the bins. I do like the idea of these articulated backhoes like the Hydrema's and Huddig's but who can afford one seriously? Over here they cost anywhere from $240,000- to over $300,000!

 

[Shovelhands]

It’s a shame JCB never got this further than the Prototype stage. As they could have a Huddig type rival in the line up now, if they got their act together that is.

 

[Old Operator]

Interesting all round, I was most interested in if the 4 equal sized wheels would provide a more powerful front end tool able to work somewhat closer to the performance of a Drott without the huge costs & lack of mobility tracks involve. One thing that is said by the Italians is with the artics, the front bucket follows the cross angle of the ground under the front wheels rather than the rear ones, making levelling / grading in a confined space easier, but they do find the AWS ridged machines more stable in use. Palazzani & Venieri offer both platforms in a size range. I did find these tyres on the net, being an alternative possibility on ground that would likely cause many punctures solidcushiontires.com/flat-proof-tires/ Maybe on an extra 'spare' set of rims??

There are many narrow lanes round here where a lorry cannot access to unload bricks/materials direct to site, so a small self mobilizing machine capable of handling a full pallet of bricks on the front forks may be attractive to 'Joe Bloggs Builder' as against a mini digger. To be honest the only thing the weirder makes have over the 2CX is a little more road speed, 25mph as opposed to 21.5. The downsides are more complexity, no aftermarket parts. (For instance this firm - was Saville tractors, www.diggerparts.net/about-us/ is near me, as is Interpart - I dealt happily with the latter firm over the years)
The Italians offer something in between the 2CX & 3CX @ about 7 tonnes & 6ft 8in wide. They go smaller but you lose the good road speed.
The 3CX Compact (really a 2CX but with Bosh Rexroth Shift on Fly hystat trans) is 25 mph - but more complex & first built Sept 2015 - so too 'new' at present cash wise.
It really comes down to investing either in a costly tow vehicle & trailer before you pay for a 2.5t max mini digger or putting all the money into a self mobilising machine that may earn you more & have fewer competitors. As to the guy who needs a Drott? well he would have to buy this himself - do the job & move it on as this is no tool for a one man band - I did wonder if there was a halfway house machine that may satisfy both needs. I have only ever seen one 4CX - it belonged to an electricity utility & was adapted to carry poles with a frame over the cab, really too big for where I may find a customer base
Firms like 'Triple Crest Planing' have used 2CX's for years - so they cannot be all bad - as to the 25 mph - it sounds slow but watching my van speedo it is amazing how much time traffic is moving at under 30 locally!
Venieri do have a dealer near me (RVH Pugh) he is new to the make but presumably understands hydrostatics? & Venieri do seem to be the market leader of the smaller Italian machines. The others have no UK presence. Looked at Huddig as far as I can tell they are fixed centre post hoe.

 

[Bri963]

Not been on a 4CX, but a good bit of time on Cat 444 & 434's. The 4 wheel steer is to compensate for lack of movement of the front wheels, even in 4WS the lock is about the same as a 432 or 428. Front bucket visibility is rubbish and they only push better than a 432/428 on soft ground. If you think one of these will outperform a drott on the front end, forget it. Unless you're working on soft ground regularly you're better off with a machine with small front wheels where you can actually see the bottom of the bucket when you're grading. Huddig or Hydrema machines? Think you'd get a high enough rate to pay it off before your grandkids are retiring? People won't pay an extra £100 a day just to see a machine that can kiss its own backside.

 

[V8Druid]

Mecalac ...... end of .... do all you want to do .... loader, forks, 360 exc., self propelled and road-able ..... as would a duck with a VA boom , but the Mecs punch way above their weight classes

 

[Mogman]

Mecalac ...... end of .... do all you want to do .... loader, forks, 360 exc., self propelled and road-able ..... as would a duck with a VA boom , but the Mecs punch way above their weight classes

Only got small wheels though you can’t beat bigger wheels when the going gets tough look how the old county’s and muir hills could get where nothing else would

 

[V8Druid]

Only got small wheels though you can’t beat bigger wheels when the going gets tough look how the old county’s and muir hills could get where nothing else would

agreed Mog ... the diameter isn't that big, (10.00-20 sort of dia.] but with enough width they'll get about pretty well

 

[BertB.]

But what's the price differential on a Mecalac versus a 2CX or similar backhoe/loader. You guys have a lot more to choose from in both departments than we do in the land of 'bigger is better'.

 

[V8Druid]

But what's the price differential on a Mecalac versus a 2CX or similar backhoe/loader. You guys have a lot more to choose from in both departments than we do in the land of 'bigger is better'.

you'd be surprised what a s/h Mec can be bought for Bert ... and Old Op is working with a constricted budget, I think

 

[BertB.]

Well give me an idea you never know I might be interested. lol

 

[V8Druid]

Well give me an idea you never know I might be interested. lol

https://www.mascus.co.uk/construction/used-excavators/mecalac

 

[BertB.]

Yeah not that bad friend of mine figured to buy a new one they would be something like $250,000CAD but I couldn't see that unless maybe it was the 15MCR with a few bells and whistles.

 

[V8Druid]

Yeah not that bad friend of mine figured to buy a new one they would be something like $250,000CAD but I couldn't see that unless maybe it was the 15MCR with a few bells and whistles.

sounds about right TBH Bert .... especially with the shipping involved, etc. .... they'm not a cheap machine, but seriously well built

 

[Jimbo69]

Used to be on a 2CX when I was in a tar squad, 19 mph, downhill with the wind behind me Our fitter opened it up once the warranty was out, could then do 30 mph on the flat.

 

[Old Operator]

Jimbo, - I take it that the fitter increased the max governed rpm on the distributor fuel pump? if so did this do long term harm to the engine, I see some specs of the 2CX quoting different max speeds, but none above about 21.5, seems to depend on the age of the unit. Seems to stick that the highway tractor compressor unit was a bit slower than the others. I had thought of some slightly larger dia tyres - but not increasing the revs. If anyone is interested in the Italian stuff it is here https://www.mmtitalia.it/macchine_edili/ They call a backhoe loader a 'Terne' Yes a limited budget for me, & would have to go with where the likely customer base is locally & what they would pay!! I can only go by the jobs I have done on my own account as to what may work. This unit caught my eye as a possibility
https://www.machinerytrader.com/lis...uipment/for-sale/11865227/2004-venieri-vf723b Depends on model & age as to the max travel speed.
Has a quicktatch front bucket & alternative of forks - so no dead weight of a bucket / poor vision, when on fork work. Would have preferred a non extendahoe dipper as then poss to add a 'backhoe thumb' - a great piece of kit on any hoe.
To be honest my old boss used to say - look at all the weird & wonderful exotic machines - then come back to JCB as the best all round for parts & running costs. A guy on another site did a short experience course @ Threlkeld & now wants to own a 22 RB! You just have to have more of a business head on - at least in my world.
I am interested in any thoughts of small backhoe loader vs mini digger for an owner op. BTW I think the old MF Industrial/Fermec line is now owned by Mecalac - but still made Coventry?

 

[V8Druid]

ought to be some tool with 105HP under the bonnet

and next to now't on't clock
40km/h sticker'd attract attention surely, as above limit for non suspended road travel in UK

wonder how they value that

Have you thought about the Haulotte Multijobs ?

Ausdave's pix of his on the CEF ..... http://www.ceforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6814

and a few vid.s .. quite a tool, but rarer than 'Drema ducks

 

[BertB.]

Do they still build those things Graeme?^^

 

[Bri963]

I am interested in any thoughts of small backhoe loader vs mini digger for an owner op. BTW I think the old MF Industrial/Fermec line is now owned by Mecalac - but still made Coventry?[/QUOTE]

Still made at Coventry, but IMO not a patch on the old Masseys or current Cats