Gearbox work

[Bri963]

Our 8 legger is auto with a clutch
Never want to miss a gear in our 6legger man 280bhp tippers loaded got to start again other wise

Back in the day, ZF produced a tranny called the Transmatic, which was a synchro box driven through a torque converter. They were aimed at tippers, but in the UK only seemed to find favour in readymix wagons, and, I seem to remember (Gra?) cranes.

 

[Bri963]

need to make sure it doesn't have an oil pump built into it, like an LT77 box, which must be ATF to circulate

Good call, Gra, but afaik that LT was the only box that had that splash feed set up, and it didn’t last too long in the Defenders. I rebuilt one that had been topped up with EP90.

To the rest making suggestions, it’s all very well suggesting and guessing oils, but you need to go on manufacturers specs. Hypoid oils have a high sulphur content which will attack the material in some baulk rings. Some synthetic oils may “look” too thin, but if they’re the right spec they’ll do the job, and they Don’t degrade the way mineral oils do when the polymer chains break down.

 

[V8Druid]

Back in the day, ZF produced a tranny called the Transmatic, which was a synchro box driven through a torque converter. They were aimed at tippers, but in the UK only seemed to find favour in readymix wagons, and, I seem to remember (Gra?) cranes.

IIRC the 25t Cozzies had 'em Bri

 

[V8Druid]

Good call, Gra, but afaik that LT was the only box that had that splash feed set up, and it didn’t last too long in the Defenders. I rebuilt one that had been topped up with EP90.

To the rest making suggestions, it’s all very well suggesting and guessing oils, but you need to go on manufacturers specs. Hypoid oils have a high sulphur content which will attack the material in some baulk rings. Some synthetic oils may “look” too thin, but if they’re the right spec they’ll do the job, and they Don’t degrade the way mineral oils do when the polymer chains break down.

bet that was ugly

 

[Gecko]

it’s all very well suggesting and guessing oils,

I agree completely regarding the EP additives. Every additive is there to compensate for some shortcomings of the base oil. If you don't have any hypoid gears, the EP additives aren't helpful (and that's ignoring the damage they may do).

As for the viscosity - that's a compromise anyway. eg. in hot climates, 3CX's were filled with iso46 (in place of the standard iso32) long before the manual was updated to recommend this.

What I'm getting at is there is no "perfect" oil for a box.
Some days are cold and you do short trips on flat roads with light loads. Others are hot days where you grind up steep hills with a full load - that's a big ask for your oil - so you do the best you can and choose a 'best fit' oil for how you expect to use it.

Not owning an LT77, I haven't followed it up, but was recently told that due to oil developments in the last 20 years, DEX2 is no longer the preferred oil for this box.

@Furniss 's box that starts quiet and gets crunchy as it warms up sounds like a perfect candidate for a heavier oil
(or a handful of sawdust )

 

[Left hooker]

bet that was ugly

Can't smell it through the internet

 

[JD450A]

To the rest making suggestions, it’s all very well suggesting and guessing oils, but you need to go on manufacturers specs. Hypoid oils have a high sulphur content which will attack the material in some baulk rings. Some synthetic oils may “look” too thin, but if they’re the right spec they’ll do the job, and they Don’t degrade the way mineral oils do when the polymer chains break down.

Bang on.

 

[Bri963]

I agree completely regarding the EP additives. Every additive is there to compensate for some shortcomings of the base oil. If you don't have any hypoid gears, the EP additives aren't helpful (and that's ignoring the damage they may do).

As for the viscosity - that's a compromise anyway. eg. in hot climates, 3CX's were filled with iso46 (in place of the standard iso32) long before the manual was updated to recommend this.

What I'm getting at is there is no "perfect" oil for a box.
Some days are cold and you do short trips on flat roads with light loads. Others are hot days where you grind up steep hills with a full load - that's a big ask for your oil - so you do the best you can and choose a 'best fit' oil for how you expect to use it.

Not owning an LT77, I haven't followed it up, but was recently told that due to oil developments in the last 20 years, DEX2 is no longer the preferred oil for this box.

@Furniss 's box that starts quiet and gets crunchy as it warms up sounds like a perfect candidate for a heavier oil
(or a handful of sawdust )

If you look at the temp. range of most modern oils, they‘ll cover a wide range. For cold climate testing we run a synthetic engine oil that’s good for ambients from -40C to +50C, which in reality means the oil temp can go from -40 up to +100 or more operating temp. Same with the PetroCanada hydraulic oil, pour point is -50 C and that’ll go up to +75-80 working hard even in those temps. So there are perfect oils, you just have to pay for them.

a lot of machine axles and gearboxes take 10w or 30w weight trans oil, not much takes 50w or heavier until you get onto bigger kit, and quite a lot of finals take multi grade synthetics. Can’t remember the last thing I put a straight 80 or 90 in, probably a wagon axle.

 

[Bri963]

bet that was ugly

Every bearing, every baulk ring, but the gears and shafts survived.

 

[Gecko]

All good points, but @Furniss 's box seems to take 75w -80, so using that as a reference, one grade up (of the same type) may solve his problem and the risk of a problem is very low.

 

[Bri963]

Just read back from the start (had a knee op yesterday and sitting here bored - not asking for sympathy, mind) and if I’m any judge a baulk Ring is on the way out, probably from too many second-gear take offs (previous owner, obviously, Furniss) or spending a lot of time in second gear In bad conditions. In other words it needs the spanners taking to it, and unless you do you can put hot tar in the bloody thing and it won’t improve. I’d have got here sooner if it wasn’t for Routy and Gra doing their impersonation of the two old boys in the Muppet show.

Without rowing back on what’s been said earlier, try double clutching up into second and down into second, if it engages without grinding that’s a bit of a pointer that the above is somewhere close.

It shouldn’t be too bad a job if you’ve got a good jack and a spare pair of hands. And a shed with a good floor. And a decent tool box.

 

[Bri963]

IIRC the 25t Cozzies had 'em Bri

Got me there, Gra?

 

[V8Druid]

Got me there, Gra?

Clarke Cosmos 725 Bri ... 25 tonner .. fast on the road, servo op, scissor riggers, hell of a boom (but like a banana full out ) ... operator and erectors dream

also did a 75 tonner .... local outfit by the name of Leta had one ..... 'til they cut a factory in half with it, reaching over the building for a boiler on t'other side and stood it on its arse .... got 'repaired' and shipped abroad.. everyone knew it and no one wanted to buy it in the home market ...... got some paper pix somewhere, using it on a job, 'fore its demise

 

[Canal Navvy]

Back in the day, ZF produced a tranny called the Transmatic, which was a synchro box driven through a torque converter. They were aimed at tippers, but in the UK only seemed to find favour in readymix wagons, and, I seem to remember (Gra?) cranes.

Was that a torque converter that locked?

Once drove a Fendt tractor that apparently had a transmatic in it (think it was an evaluation model) , it was bloody lovely being able to drop the plough in at slow speed and then feel the torque converter lock up at work speed. I gather that they didn't tolerate driver abuse so got dropped as the fluid flywheel was a safer bet

 

[Furniss]

Just read back from the start (had a knee op yesterday and sitting here bored - not asking for sympathy, mind) and if I’m any judge a baulk Ring is on the way out, probably from too many second-gear take offs (previous owner, obviously, Furniss) or spending a lot of time in second gear In bad conditions. In other words it needs the spanners taking to it, and unless you do you can put hot tar in the bloody thing and it won’t improve. I’d have got here sooner if it wasn’t for Routy and Gra doing their impersonation of the two old boys in the Muppet show.

Without rowing back on what’s been said earlier, try double clutching up into second and down into second, if it engages without grinding that’s a bit of a pointer that the above is somewhere close.

It shouldn’t be too bad a job if you’ve got a good jack and a spare pair of hands. And a shed with a good floor. And a decent tool box.

Tried double clutching and it doesnt help .....although I'm too straight for my own good many a time - the wagon is getting replaced very shortly, I have the workshop facilities but not the enthusiasm or time for the job hence thought an oil change and maybe a slightly thicker one might be enough to see it on its way without it becoming an issue.

 

[Bri963]

Tried double clutching and it doesnt help .....although I'm too straight for my own good many a time - the wagon is getting replaced very shortly, I have the workshop facilities but not the enthusiasm or time for the job hence thought an oil change and maybe a slightly thicker one might be enough to see it on its way without it becoming an issue.

Obviously your call, mate, you know how the costings work for you. Sometimes it’s easier to take a bit of a hit unless you have a real hankering after keeping it, which you haven’t.

 

[Bri963]

Was that a torque converter that locked?

Once drove a Fendt tractor that apparently had a transmatic in it (think it was an evaluation model) , it was bloody lovely being able to drop the plough in at slow speed and then feel the torque converter lock up at work speed. I gather that they didn't tolerate driver abuse so got dropped as the fluid flywheel was a safer bet

That’s the one. That was the selling point, claimed to be as efficient as a normal manual. Seemed a good idea.
What was it like in the cranes, Gra?

 

[Bri963]

Clarke Cosmos 725 Bri ... 25 tonner .. fast on the road, servo op, scissor riggers, hell of a boom (but like a banana full out ) ... operator and erectors dream
View attachment 32298

also did a 75 tonner .... local outfit by the name of Leta had one ..... 'til they cut a factory in half with it, reaching over the building for a boiler on t'other side and stood it on its arse .... got 'repaired' and shipped abroad.. everyone knew it and no one wanted to buy it in the home market ...... got some paper pix somewhere, using it on a job, 'fore its demise
View attachment 32300

Never seen one before, Gra, but as you say the boom doesn’t look the deepest for the capacity.

 

[V8Druid]

That’s the one. That was the selling point, claimed to be as efficient as a normal manual. Seemed a good idea.
What was it like in the cranes, Gra?

drove well .... real fast on the road, but they were fairly light by 25t standards, but had a big rigger spread

Never seen one before, Gra, but as you say the boom doesn’t look the deepest for the capacity.

the droop in the boom was ..... exciting!! .... but reach comes at a price ... 'least it did then ...... never seen one with its swingaway on ... most got left in the yard ..... God knows what it'd have looked like, full stick

 

[Gecko]

they Don’t degrade the way mineral oils do when the polymer chains break down.

One argument against this (good) point is that contamination occurs at the same rate regardless of the type of oil.
Fresh oil is clean oil, so you are not only replacing degraded oil, but removing contaminates at the same time. This doesn't hold true for all applications, but is worth considering.