Help, I’ve entered the tiltrotator minefield!

[Wsquire]

So the company I work for is currently pricing changing our jcb js130. Im very lucky that my boss is including me in this process and is very open to ideas etc.
For a long time we’ve talked about tilt rotators. Love the idea of them, no experience using them basically.
I can see how they would be massively useful for us in the work we do.

What do we need to know, do’s and dont’s etc?

From what I’ve gleaned so far from this forum and others. Changing hitch types to the s type is recommended?

It would also seem that if we went down this route we would be wise to fit the rotator on to a quick hitch so it’s removable for certain jobs. Do most people do this?

Currently all we’ve done so far is getting a rough quote for a steel wrist whilst also quoting for a jcb 140x. Sitting down would of been wise before reading it!

Thank you for reading,
A tiltrotator newbie!

 

[JD450A]

S Type Hitch, and top hitch are needed.

But ultimately you need to weigh up if it's going to generate extra revenue.... which is something only you can work out.

 

[GazCro]

S Type Hitch, and top hitch are needed.

But ultimately you need to weigh up if it's going to generate extra revenue.... which is something only you can work out.

Or increase productivity or better quality work. Basically as Rory says bottom line is £££. Tilty is my long term goal but keeps getting pushed down the list by more profitable items, screening bucket next for me.

 

[T whiting]

There a great bit of kit but to get the most out of it its best setup s-type hitch with a top quick hitch gripper and a proper control system (x-control on a steelwrist).

Anything less is a bit of a compromise but a you say there's a significant cost involved and you do have to weigh up how it'll pay for itself if its all day hire you'll struggle to make it pay but if its mostly price work especially if your using other plant that increasing the speed you do the job reduces the hire for the other plant.

Whatever you do dont fit a pin grabber hitch over a pin grabber tiltrotator or it'll be about 5 ft from bucket edge to the end of the dipper

 

[JD450A]

Or increase productivity or better quality work.

That's fine. But both items need to create more money.

That's why my 8t tilt hitch went..... £5 a hour difference to supply it and do a lot of stuff quicker and better..... But they don't want to pay for it. So they don't get it.

The 1.5t Hitch strangely people will pay for.

 

[GazCro]

That's fine. But both items need to create more money.

That's why my 8t tilt hitch went..... £5 a hour difference to supply it and do a lot of stuff quicker and better..... But they don't want to pay for it. So they don't get it.

The 1.5t Hitch strangely people will pay for.

Increased productivity on a price job = more ££. But you're right it's a lot of money to spend to get same hourly rate hence it keeps going down the list for me. I'll make it pay when i do it.

 

[Regy53]

Welcome to the site. If you want a top price for your js130, please let me know

 

[Wsquire]

There a great bit of kit but to get the most out of it its best setup s-type hitch with a top quick hitch gripper and a proper control system (x-control on a steelwrist).

Anything less is a bit of a compromise but a you say there's a significant cost involved and you do have to weigh up how it'll pay for itself if its all day hire you'll struggle to make it pay but if its mostly price work especially if your using other plant that increasing the speed you do the job reduces the hire for the other plant.

Whatever you do dont fit a pin grabber hitch over a pin grabber tiltrotator or it'll be about 5 ft from bucket edge to the end of the dipper

Is getting a machine with 2 proportional controllers enough? Or is it better going for the x-control for example? The current spec on the jcb we’re pricing is with proportional hammer lines and low flow for rotation, to suit a selector grab we run.

 

[Gunners]

Neither of you two have a tilt rotator - because you don't feel they suit your business, and that's fair enough, only US as business owners can make that decision. But I really don't think you can comment on what the OP needs because we don't know HIS business!

@Wsquire Its a minefield alright, and the setup you choose ultimately needs to reflect the kind of work you do. If for example you don't use a hammer, or dig trenches deeper than the bucket (bear in mind S type buckets are generally taller anyway), then you might not need a top hitch. I have one and have taken the tilty off maybe 3 times in 2 years. Likewise maybe you dont need EC Oil/ Oilquick if you aren't using hydraulic attachments every week. But it depends on YOUR work!
I work on a mix of price and daywork. It doesn't increase the daywork rate by enough to justify the expense, but it does pay for itself in other ways I have found. Longer hires, more demand for your services etc so can help indirectly.
I have a much smaller machine than you but have documented how I have found owning one in this video. Hopefully can give you an idea for your setup and some real life experience of what its like owning one.

one thing I would defiantly recommend is finding someone else with the setup you have in mind on Facebook or Instagram etc and messaging them to ask how they have found it. Real life experience is hard earned and it could save you a lot of money.

 

[GazCro]

Neither of you two have a tilt rotator - because you don't feel they suit your business, and that's fair enough, only US as business owners can make that decision. But I really don't think you can comment on what the OP needs because we don't know HIS business!

@Wsquire Its a minefield alright, and the setup you choose ultimately needs to reflect the kind of work you do. If for example you don't use a hammer, or dig trenches deeper than the bucket (bear in mind S type buckets are generally taller anyway),then you might not need a top hitch. I have one and have taken the tilty off maybe 3 times in 2 years. Likewise maybe you dont need EC Oil/ Oilquick if you aren't using hydraulic attachments every week. But it depends on YOUR work!
I work on a mix of price and daywork. It doesn't increase the daywork rate by enough to justify the expense, but it does pay for itself in other ways I have found. Longer hires, more demand for your services etc so can help indirectly.
I have a much smaller machine than you but have documented how I have found owning one in this video. Hopefully can give you an idea for your setup and some real life experience of what its like owning one.

one thing I would defiantly recommend is finding someone else with the setup you have in mind on Facebook or Instagram etc and messaging them to ask how they have found it. Real life experience is hard earned and it could save you a lot of money.

It isn't that it doesn't suit my business but that i am prioritising which order I'm buying in. Another factor not mentioned is ground conditions. If you're in a nice soft area then direct mount may work. I went to s45 hitch and buckets on my 9 tonner 3 years ago to make the tilty upgrade cheaper when i do it. I do a fair amount of hammer work and also run crusher bucket so I'd want tilty off on a regular basis. Add to that most digging round me is boulder clay and i know they say the scandis never take them off for hard digging if its dropped off when i don't need it on it should be the only tilty i ever buy.

 

[Wsquire]

Neither of you two have a tilt rotator - because you don't feel they suit your business, and that's fair enough, only US as business owners can make that decision. But I really don't think you can comment on what the OP needs because we don't know HIS business!

@Wsquire Its a minefield alright, and the setup you choose ultimately needs to reflect the kind of work you do. If for example you don't use a hammer, or dig trenches deeper than the bucket (bear in mind S type buckets are generally taller anyway), then you might not need a top hitch. I have one and have taken the tilty off maybe 3 times in 2 years. Likewise maybe you dont need EC Oil/ Oilquick if you aren't using hydraulic attachments every week. But it depends on YOUR work!
I work on a mix of price and daywork. It doesn't increase the daywork rate by enough to justify the expense, but it does pay for itself in other ways I have found. Longer hires, more demand for your services etc so can help indirectly.
I have a much smaller machine than you but have documented how I have found owning one in this video. Hopefully can give you an idea for your setup and some real life experience of what its like owning one.

one thing I would defiantly recommend is finding someone else with the setup you have in mind on Facebook or Instagram etc and messaging them to ask how they have found it. Real life experience is hard earned and it could save you a lot of money.

Thank you for the advice. We are a real mixed bag of work when it comes to the diggers. Mostly agricultural oriented! From what I’ve worked out so far.
We would be going for s type to reduce height of the overall setup.
Quick hitch mounted, as we do at times do a fair bit of deep trenching and us a breaker (probably what’s worn out our current tilt hitch)
No oil quick connect as generally if it’s hooked on it stays on for awhile. We don’t have any hydraulic tools that need to come off regularly.

Getting one on demo for a while would be lovely but as we’ve found recently getting anything on demo with COVID going on isn’t easy!

 

[GazCro]

Thank you for the advice. We are a real mixed bag of work when it comes to the diggers. Mostly agricultural oriented! From what I’ve worked out so far.
We would be going for s type to reduce height of the overall setup.
Quick hitch mounted, as we do at times do a fair bit of deep trenching and us a breaker (probably what’s worn out our current tilt hitch)
No oil quick connect as generally if it’s hooked on it stays on for awhile. We don’t have any hydraulic tools that need to come off regularly.

Getting one on demo for a while would be lovely but as we’ve found recently getting anything on demo with COVID going on isn’t easy!

Oil quick gets expensive fast if you have a few attachments. The other thing with s type is its wider and longer on spacing to spread the load out better on buckets etc as you can stress buckets in different ways with a tilty. A set of buckets designed for a tilty are a good investment as well as they use slightly different shape/ geometry.

 

[Wsquire]

Oil quick gets expensive fast if you have a few attachments. The other thing with s type is its wider and longer on spacing to spread the load out better on buckets etc as you can stress buckets in different ways with a tilty. A set of buckets designed for a tilty are a good investment as well as they use slightly different shape/ geometry.

We were talking about this earlier, we’d probably go for a grading bucket and trench bucket for a start, and convert our lesser used collection of buckets over time/buy more buckets as we work out what we need. (Amazing how many you collect over time!)

I guess the next big question is reliability! Just how reliable are they? I know it is really down to the operator.
What sort of hours are they capable of before starting to show signs of wear?
Are there common problems with them? I hear horror stories about the quick connectors in the wrong operators hands!

 

[rossandson]

Welcome on board @Wsquire

This is a very similar thread I was considering starting today. As I am in the process of weighing up Pros and Cons, and ultimately the cost of getting a tilty. Admittedly swaying more towards the Engcon. (I blame @Gunners for that). But Engcon have just increased their prices for the new year which is extremely frustrating and have done some very good deals in the past. Their system just seems to get more and more expensive which end of the day ££s are always nicer in your own pocket compared to someone else.

It is a minefield, more so as its the type of thing you want to do right first time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we'd all be millionaires if so, but you do have to try and think ahead with purchases like this.

 

[T whiting]

Is getting a machine with 2 proportional controllers enough? Or is it better going for the x-control for example? The current spec on the jcb we’re pricing is with proportional hammer lines and low flow for rotation, to suit a selector grab we run.

I've only experience of running a x control and is the way i would go i know there's manufactures pushing for 2 proportional circuits but you end up with 4 pipes and a electrical connection whereas with a x control setup all you need is hammer lines the don't even need to be 2 way just servo controlled as all the smarts are in the tiltrotator.

I would buy the scandinavian grading bucket and a trenching bucket in scandi style the rest can be cheap/converted buckets just make sure the hangers are at the right angle to the bucket floor as there hard to use under the tiltrotator with poor geometry

 

[Wsquire]

Welcome on board @Wsquire

This is a very similar thread I was considering starting today. As I am in the process of weighing up Pros and Cons, and ultimately the cost of getting a tilty. Admittedly swaying more towards the Engcon. (I blame @Gunners for that). But Engcon have just increased their prices for the new year which is extremely frustrating and have done some very good deals in the past. Their system just seems to get more and more expensive which end of the day ££s are always nicer in your own pocket compared to someone else.

It is a minefield, more so as its the type of thing you want to do right first time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we'd all be millionaires if so, but you do have to try and think ahead with purchases like this.

We’re not really swinging towards any brand just yet. Only looking at steel wrist as JCB offer it as a factory option. It gets even more confusing when you start comparing different manufactures!
A new machine is a big thing for us, so we want it right

I've only experience of running a x control and is the way i would go i know there's manufactures pushing for 2 proportional circuits but you end up with 4 pipes and a electrical connection whereas with a x control setup all you need is hammer lines the don't even need to be 2 way just servo controlled as all the smarts are in the tiltrotator.

I would buy the scandinavian grading bucket and a trenching bucket in scandi style the rest can be cheap/converted buckets just make sure the hangers are at the right angle to the bucket floor as there hard to use under the tiltrotator with poor geometry

Thank you for the information, seems we’re on the right lines with the buckets then! The x control set up sounds better certainly.

 

[GazCro]

Jcb have a tie up with steelwrist as you say so in theory should be competitive if all priced together. It will be interesting to see if that's the case. The best way to go imho (the way I'll more than likely go) is control system amongst other things out allows for tilt rotate and an aux feed for an attachment without needing a change over valve robbing tilt or rotate.

 

[CPS]

Hi Buddy,

I can offer some advise on the Rototilt range if you like.

Firstly, as most people know by now there are a few option's when it comes to Tiltrotators.

Coupler styles
Forget about anything else other than "S" Type when it comes to tiltys, It really is a far better set up. Its been over 4 years since i supplied a pin grab hitch on a tiltrotator, the only time it even gets considered now is if the customer has a larger fleet and share alot of buckets and attachments.

Top Hitch
It's already been said, but not 100% necessary. If you do a lot of hammer work then yes, take it off! worth noting Rototilt will cover warranty with a hammer, but it is limited to 300hrs per year or so.
Deep trenching, if its real narrow. A Rototilt will go in a trench just less than 750mm

The only real down side to a top hitch is the cost! and a slight increase in weight. I have had customer that have went top hitch and never had the tilty off! One customer has 5 Rototilts, 4 with top hitch but the 5 was Direct mount.

Control system
Two main control systems, fully proportional or 4/6 hose systems. I'd always recommend fully proportional systems, In our case the ICS system. Its much more user friendly, far better if using attachments such as grabs, tree shears etc as you can do 4 functions at the same time, no need to divert the tilt to aux etc. It also ables the addition off extras such as track control, GPS control etc at the time of purchase or later.

The 4/6 hose systems are a good system also, but only if the machine come standard with 4 lines, for example you are ordering a new machine it will be 2.5-3K extra for rotate lines, which are wasted if you fit ICS now or later.

Tiltrotator
The Tiltrotator itself is actually the simple part but there is things to chose such as high-flow if you want to run flails or mulchers, or quick change for automatic attachment connections etc.
Rototilt is oil filled which is a great bonus as you know its getting lubricated.

Buckets
Swedish style buckets really do work well with Tiltrotators, there is great options out there now (ofcoarse we supply our own range off buckets which we build to spec)
I find most customer go for a bit of a mix match, for instance a popular combo I supply would be 1.6M Nordic grader 600mm Nordic trench bucket and 1.2M standard digging bucket, you can then change over some of your older less used standard buckets

Thats my 10p's worth, if you need any prices for a Rototilt il be happy to help.... might even take that old tilt hitch back as a trade in

Aiden

 

[GazCro]

Hi Buddy,

I can offer some advise on the Rototilt range if you like.

Firstly, as most people know by now there are a few option's when it comes to Tiltrotators.

Coupler styles
Forget about anything else other than "S" Type when it comes to tiltys, It really is a far better set up. Its been over 4 years since i supplied a pin grab hitch on a tiltrotator, the only time it even gets considered now is if the customer has a larger fleet and share alot of buckets and attachments.

Top Hitch
It's already been said, but not 100% necessary. If you do a lot of hammer work then yes, take it off! worth noting Rototilt will cover warranty with a hammer, but it is limited to 300hrs per year or so.
Deep trenching, if its real narrow. A Rototilt will go in a trench just less than 750mm

The only real down side to a top hitch is the cost! and a slight increase in weight. I have had customer that have went top hitch and never had the tilty off! One customer has 5 Rototilts, 4 with top hitch but the 5 was Direct mount.

Control system
Two main control systems, fully proportional or 4/6 hose systems. I'd always recommend fully proportional systems, In our case the ICS system. Its much more user friendly, far better if using attachments such as grabs, tree shears etc as you can do 4 functions at the same time, no need to divert the tilt to aux etc. It also ables the addition off extras such as track control, GPS control etc at the time of purchase or later.

The 4/6 hose systems are a good system also, but only if the machine come standard with 4 lines, for example you are ordering a new machine it will be 2.5-3K extra for rotate lines, which are wasted if you fit ICS now or later.

Tiltrotator
The Tiltrotator itself is actually the simple part but there is things to chose such as high-flow if you want to run flails or mulchers, or quick change for automatic attachment connections etc.
Rototilt is oil filled which is a great bonus as you know its getting lubricated.

Buckets
Swedish style buckets really do work well with Tiltrotators, there is great options out there now (ofcoarse we supply our own range off buckets which we build to spec)
I find most customer go for a bit of a mix match, for instance a popular combo I supply would be 1.6M Nordic grader 600mm Nordic trench bucket and 1.2M standard digging bucket, you can then change over some of your older less used standard buckets

Thats my 10p's worth, if you need any prices for a Rototilt il be happy to help.... might even take that old tilt hitch back as a trade in

Aiden

I was gonna post this before you replied but you can confirm other than engcons dc2 everybody else's control system is Svab is it not (or their own branded version of it)?

 

[TiltyShaun]

I have my little 3 tonner with an Engcon. Love it to bits. When you go tilt and rotate you won’t want to go back. I jumped on our 8ton Kobelco this afternoon to grade a track. It was so frustrating as it would have taken my seconds to have done it with the little digger but tracking around and levelling in the blade was a pain!! I purchased @JD450A tilt bucket but it is not the full ticket. Useful but just not there compared to the full monty. It looks like Engcon will be extracting some more ££ from me soon. Now this is the rub. As others have said it depends on your work. My 3 tonner is direct mount. We rarely use a hammer and don’t own one. So when I need one I get a smaller machine in with one. The Kobelco is usually driven by my nephew and he is in bulk work where the unit could be dropped off. But when you are digging or grading and being able to change the bucket angle, direction or tilt is useful, when you can do it by a press of the button it saves time.
Again as others have said it depends on how you do your work. What works for some doesn’t work for others. I run older machinery and would rather have the extra kit. New machine and toys would upset my work life balance paying for it!!
But I have gathered together a collection of machines and gadgets that keep me entertained and happy.
As for Engcon. They are local to me and where the only provider that would do the 3 tonner. I have also the older unit on the 18ton duck. I purchased the duck because it had an Engcon. I will sleep better when I have a totally tilt and rotate fleet with the relevant tools to do the work I enjoy.