Fork attachments & reverse bucket use.

[sarah]

Hi EVERYONE, I NEED SOME ADVISE ON USING FORK ATTACHMENTS ON THE 360 TRACKED & DUCK MACHINES AND HOW A LIFT PLAN CAN BE CARRIED OUT WITHOUT DUTY CHARTS FOR FORKS ?

ALSO SOME INFORMATION ON HOW YOU RECOMMEND THE USE OF REVERSE BUCKETS IN MUCK SHIFT IS THERE INFO IN THE MANUFACTURERS BOOKS ?

TIA

SARAH

 

[doobin]

Not sure if spam but....


I use reversed bucket all the time. Not usually for muck shift as you loose too much breakout force, which was why a face shovel was invented. But it's so handy when doing things like loading from bulk bags (cut one side open) or loading a mini dumper or Transit with a micro (which suffers from lack of dump height. Also good for placing stone and scooping out of a dumper.

 

[sarah]

Thanks doobin - not spam

some supply chain partners i am working with are on about banning reverse bucket use & also forks on 360's

so wanting to get as much info to stop this, can you think of anything safety risks of using reverse bucket

 

[Shovelhands]

There are risks to running the bucket in reverse I suppose, the main one that springs to mind is that the operator cannot see what is in the bucket. But that’s not to say it’s not a manageable risk.
Running a bucket backwards is common practice for me and something I’ve done since I was first driving machines, it’s second nature and until you mentioned it I had not considered it a real risk at all, it’s just part of the job and part of the general risks that are accounted for constantly every day.

 

[Smiffy]

The

There are risks to running the bucket in reverse I suppose, the main one that springs to mind is that the operator cannot see what is in the bucket. But that’s not to say it’s not a manageable risk.
Running a bucket backwards is common practice for me and something I’ve done since I was first driving machines, it’s second nature and until you mentioned it I had not considered it a real risk at all, it’s just part of the job and part of the general risks that are accounted for constantly every day.

But tbh how often do you dig with it on backwards
If I have a bucket on backwards it's usually moving concrete or getting shingle out a dumper
I should think the biggest risk and I've seen it a few times is when underpinning people clout the ram on the existing concrete and dent or scratch it
And if they plan to ban forks then surely they must ban all lifting operations with excavators as there really is no difference as long as the swl is observed then the two are equally as dangerous and it's the operator responsibility not to do anything stupid

Tbh the person that's dreamt this up sounds like they they have never actually worked on site

 

[craig]

Reverse buckets, can sometimes be a little more awkward when removing them, if people are not careful the way the weight hangs, they can fall out of the front jaw of the hitch easier than a bucket the conventional way, but some people struggle hitch/unhitching buckets the normal way . A mention in the RAMS/toolbox talk should cover this.
Also some people (often the same as above, who struggle to hitch buckets correctly) find them difficult to use

Pallet forks, it should be possible to calculate SWL, at say 500mm from the heal of the forks, measure that distance to the manufactures lifting point, add that to the lifting radius on the chart and you have the new SWL, have the weight of the attachment know, to subtract from the `new` SWL chart. Using a excavator set up for lifting, including check valves on the bucket ram.
There is all ready a lifting operation part to the `ticket` system, perhaps that could be revised to include forks?

 

[Lynchy]

Thanks doobin - not spam

some supply chain partners i am working with are on about banning reverse bucket use & also forks on 360's

so wanting to get as much info to stop this, can you think of anything safety risks of using reverse bucket

Why stop it,play them.at their own game?
Hire a telehandler as well as 360.to them,or fit GKD or similar limiter,to 360 and charge extra for it, instead of reversing bucket,hire a skip for concrete, ior fit tilt/turn hitch,charge extra
Safety risk of reverse bucket?not fitted correctly,or operator forgets n dumps instead of crowds bucket?

 

[craig]

Also, how would tilt rotators fit into all this

 

[Shovelhands]

The


But tbh how often do you dig with it on backwards
If I have a bucket on backwards it's usually moving concrete or getting shingle out a dumper
I should think the biggest risk and I've seen it a few times is when underpinning people clout the ram on the existing concrete and dent or scratch it
And if they plan to ban forks then surely they must ban all lifting operations with excavators as there really is no difference as long as the swl is observed then the two are equally as dangerous and it's the operator responsibility not to do anything stupid

Tbh the person that's dreamt this up sounds like they they have never actually worked on site

We shift around 6000t+ each year with the bucket on backwards.

 

[Regy53]

just to clear up, this isnt spam.. Welcome to the forum btw

 

[JD450A]

I will sort you out some stuff to look at later @sarah

 

[Antony Holmes]

Hi EVERYONE, I NEED SOME ADVISE ON USING FORK ATTACHMENTS ON THE 360 TRACKED & DUCK MACHINES AND HOW A LIFT PLAN CAN BE CARRIED OUT WITHOUT DUTY CHARTS FOR FORKS ?

ALSO SOME INFORMATION ON HOW YOU RECOMMEND THE USE OF REVERSE BUCKETS IN MUCK SHIFT IS THERE INFO IN THE MANUFACTURERS BOOKS ?

TIA

SARAH

may be it is being done to encourage the use of tilt rotators as these have been designed with both jobs you talk about in mind

 

[GazCro]

may be it is being done to encourage the use of tilt rotators as these have been designed with both jobs you talk about in mind

On that note it does make you wonder about whether a lot of quick hitches are suitable, a lot don't have a huge amount of strength in the back jaw.

 

[CPS]

Hi EVERYONE, I NEED SOME ADVISE ON USING FORK ATTACHMENTS ON THE 360 TRACKED & DUCK MACHINES AND HOW A LIFT PLAN CAN BE CARRIED OUT WITHOUT DUTY CHARTS FOR FORKS ?

ALSO SOME INFORMATION ON HOW YOU RECOMMEND THE USE OF REVERSE BUCKETS IN MUCK SHIFT IS THERE INFO IN THE MANUFACTURERS BOOKS ?

TIA

SARAH

Two things spring to mind in regards to the mechanical side of things.

1. If a load is to much for the bucket ram it can overcome the ram and drop the load.

2. If a bucket or forks is reversed the quick hitch can have problems. I.E all the weight is on the locking mechanism.

I would say this is were they are coming from, can't say I agree with it , but I can see some problems with the wrong person in the seat.

 

[T whiting]

The biggest problem with forks is that most machines don't have a check valve to stop the bucket rotating if a pipe bursts.

Saying that forks on a 360 are very handy especially on the duck it does tend to wind the forkie up when I can literally run rings round them

I'll be honest I can hardly see any problems with a reverse bucket and if sites are having problems the problems not with the machine it's in the seat.

 

[V8Druid]

The biggest problem with forks is that most machines don't have a check valve to stop the bucket rotating if a pipe bursts.

Saying that forks on a 360 are very handy especially on the duck it does tend to wind the forkie up when I can literally run rings round them

I'll be honest I can hardly see any problems with a reverse bucket and if sites are having problems the problems not with the machine it's in the seat.

Two things spring to mind in regards to the mechanical side of things.

1. If a load is to much for the bucket ram it can overcome the ram and drop the load.

2. If a bucket or forks is reversed the quick hitch can have problems. I.E all the weight is on the locking mechanism.

I would say this is were they are coming from, can't say I agree with it , but I can see some problems with the wrong person in the seat.

and if they still had a manually fitted safety pin .... there'd be no issues

 

[T whiting]

Yes there would half the ops can't be arsed to get out and fit it especially if it's a drainage job where you can be changing buckets /dropping them off half a dozen times a hour

 

[Smiffy]

and if they still had a manually fitted safety pin .... there'd be no issues

Plenty of quick hitches have a sliding back jaw surely it's only the hinge type rear jaw that could open under extreme pressure

 

[JD450A]

Use Of Reversed Buckets and Forks in Excavator Operations
Foreword:
The following text is information gleaned from 10 years’ actual practical working experience and the knowledge gained as such. This information is not infallible and if doubts or concerns are seen you should consult the machine manufacturer for information – RJS-2020.

Background:
The use of reversed buckets has been a tool used safely by experienced operators since the Advent of hydraulic Excavators. It has been highlighted by Intellectual minds that this is unsafe due to the nature of design of the machine.

The Reality is whilst Hydraulic Forces on a conventional Backhoe arm in this configuration are far weaker than that of pulling towards the machine as in standard operation, there are no real issues with using a excavator in this manner and ultimately it has been a design feature on many excavators since the late 80’s.

Risk Of Detachment:

Direct Pin - The simple reality is the only heightened risk posed by reversed buckets in most operations is due to bucket detachment. This risk is NOT INCREASED on excavators with Direct Pin Mounted Buckets.

The Semi Q/H - or Safety Pin Hitch has mostly been disowned by most of the industry. Whilst the design of the hitch is inherently safe (A Safety Pin MUST be inserted for correct operation, which Mechanically locks the Hydraulic/Spring Loaded Jaw Shut) If Used Correctly The Pin would Prevent the Jaw being pushed into the open position by use of a reversed Bucket and therefore the risk is NOT INCREASED by use of a reversed bucket

Fully Hydraulic Q/H – These Hitches Rely on Full Hydraulic Pressure to open and close the hitch and mostly have a front locking Jaw that functions on both the full retraction of the ram And/Or Gravity/Position of the Hitch. These Hitches theoretically could be forced open by pushing the rear jaw back however it’s exceptionally unlikely this would happen as it’s unlikely the reduced forces of the arm would generate enough power to do so. And even if they did it’s doubtful the front lock (Twin Lock) would raise to allow full bucket detachment. Put short the risk is NOT INCREASED

S Type Q/H
these hitch systems are Different from the Standard Pin Grabbing Systems (See Above) In that they use a calibrated system of pins suited to the various sizes. (S30, S45, S60 Etc).
The Danger with these systems is many are not Twin lock and rely on the Hydraulic pressure and Electro Hydraulic Interlocks to prevent detachment. Theoretically force could be applied that would force the rams open and create a dangerous situation. However reality is very different and these systems are considered very safe in the country’s they are used (Scandinavia). Most S Type Hitches are on Tilt Rotator Systems which eliminate the bucket reversal argument anyway.

Other Arguments Against Reversed Buckets:
Reduced Visibility of cutting edge – Yes Visibility is reduced but no more than on a loading shovel or when the bucket is digging anyway. A Good operator should be able to use a bucket backwards Capably

Not Designed for use – Not strictly true. Consult Specific Manufacturers for more information

Machine Instability – Non Argument, A machine can be destabilised with a standard bucket if a unskilled or incapable operator is put on it

Benefits to reversed bucket use:
There are numerous arguments for the use of reversed buckets.
Some scenarios such as grading poor or waterlogged material benefit from it as the cutting edge (Wearing edge of the bucket) can be used to seal the ground without damaging the bottom of the bucket.
Pouring concrete can be made safer with there being no risk of the excavator arm contacting the lorry and placement being directed out without the Arm being over the work zone.
Extracting stone from Dumpers or Lorries is safer as the load is being pushed against a fixed reinforced headboard as opposed to being pulled towards a vulnerable tailgate.
Loading material from cut level (Particularly in bad ground) Safety and Efficiency can be increased by keeping the excavator on safe/known/solid ground and pushing material away from the machine so as to keep the operator and machine out of the mud.

Use of Forks on Excavators:
The use of Forks and other load carrying attachments (Pipe Handlers, Block Grabs, Kerb Grabs) Requires simple thought and a person capable of reading a load chart.

Attachments that hang from a chain can be utilised simply as the load centre will correspond to the chart.

Where Forks or Similar are used which extend the load centre out a competent operator should be able to interpret the chart and gain the correct SWL by looking at the Distance from slew ring, and working out the load centres position relative to the charts corresponding points.

It is worth considering the fact that Tracked 360’ Excavators are not ideal for fork operations as there machine design makes them prone to jerky movements on uneven ground. HOWEVER in certain circumstances they can be far safer than a telehandler or traditional rough terrain masted forklift as they can sometimes pick and place loads without directional movement and are often more stable on sloping or soft ground.

What can I do to ensure and improve the safety of machines on my site?
Quite simply safety begins and ends with the operator. Forget Cards, Paper and the other false indicators ask yourself:
Have I seen this operator driving Safely?
Does this operator understand how his machine functions?
Does this operator Know and Understand the risks in the task he is about to perform?
Does this operator Know and Understand the RAMS?
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WOULD I BE PREPARED TO STAND BESIDE THIS OPERATOR WHILST THEY ARE WORKING

Yes this is going on Linked In too

 

[Left hooker]

Remember hill in their booklet that came with the hitches ok'ed reverse buckets a good 15 years ago