Making it pay.........

[Engcon UK]

We've all had several conversations over the years (on the CEF before Ross set up the new forum) and more recently here about how people make things pay, particularly when investing in a tilty and, increasingly, machine guidance. Manufacturers - ourselves included - are often viewed with some cynicism when explaining the cost/benefit equations. A bit like some of the comments raised when I posted the 4CX thread a while back, high-spec machines are seen as being not so relevant for those involved in more general work. Hopefully this may go some way to redressing the balance:

The relevant bit that isn't included in the video is the financials. Miller pay a fixed price per house and the existing operators on site generally complete one a day. You'll be able to work out the rate for yourselves. Richard Baker - the guy in the video - because he has the files downloaded from the housebuilder, no banksman or engineer to worry about and is pretty much a self-contained, one digger army with all his attachments is able to do ten in the same time. This is, admittedly, an extreme example; but it does illustrate the possibilities that can open up when you invest in the kit.

 

[Gunners]

My tilty's been earning me great money the last 2 weeks. Machine hasn't moved an inch and I've been fencing - but paid my full machine and operator rate. I must say its a very profitable way to run and the machine never wears out! My graft on the other hand might need a hardox cutting edge

 

[Engcon UK]

My tilty's been earning me great money the last 2 weeks. Machine hasn't moved an inch and I've been fencing - but paid my full machine and operator rate. I must say its a very profitable way to run and the machine never wears out! My graft on the other hand might need a hardox cutting edge

Tim could weld it for you......

 

[doobin]

We've all had several conversations over the years (on the CEF before Ross set up the new forum) and more recently here about how people make things pay, particularly when investing in a tilty and, increasingly, machine guidance. Manufacturers - ourselves included - are often viewed with some cynicism when explaining the cost/benefit equations. A bit like some of the comments raised when I posted the 4CX thread a while back, high-spec machines are seen as being not so relevant for those involved in more general work. Hopefully this may go some way to redressing the balance:

The relevant bit that isn't included in the video is the financials. Miller pay a fixed price per house and the existing operators on site generally complete one a day. You'll be able to work out the rate for yourselves. Richard Baker - the guy in the video - because he has the files downloaded from the housebuilder, no banksman or engineer to worry about and is pretty much a self-contained, one digger army with all his attachments is able to do ten in the same time. This is, admittedly, an extreme example; but it does illustrate the possibilities that can open up when you invest in the kit.

I reckon you've got five-ten years to get in and profit before its the defecto standard and rates are back to where they are today.

Engcon will do OK- plenty of orders. UK contractors will continue their race to the bottom, albeit on a more twisty path

 

[JD450A]

I've a tilty coming on site tommorow where we are helping out.... Albeit the blade on the hitachi it's attached to is the most useful thing. I need to take a chain too

Race to the bottom is the issue.... On another note I need to fix the cab on the 1994 Komatsu as it's off out on hire for about £70 a hour start of next year. I s**t you not

 

[Grahams]

I reckon you've got five-ten years to get in and profit before its the defecto standard and rates are back to where they are today.

Engcon will do OK- plenty of orders. UK contractors will continue their race to the bottom, albeit on a more twisty path

It is a never ending arms race. Tilt rotators are now becoming quite common, so as you say it won't be long before they are just expected in the price if you want the hire. I guess the next thing is 2d or even 3d control. Like the guy with the leica in the video.

 

[Grahams]

one digger army with all his attachments is able to do ten in the same time.

That is one hell of a productivity jump. Just hope he is working for a decent lot who don't suddenly decide they could save a few quid by taking it in house with their own machine and employed operator now he has shown them the way to go.

 

[Engcon UK]

It is a never ending arms race. Tilt rotators are now becoming quite common, so as you say it won't be long before they are just expected in the price if you want the hire. I guess the next thing is 2d or even 3d control. Like the guy with the leica in the video.

To reassure you Graham, tilties (and machine guidance) are getting a hell of a lot of press, but by no stretch of the imagination would I call them common. Certainly on more specialist machines such as your walkers they have a higher take-up ratio, but the penetration of the UK market at present is very low - less than one percent. One only has to take a drive up the M6 around Stoke and count the diggers with tilties (a month or so ago it was one) and compare the number to the count of conventional diggers and you'll see what I mean.

Perhaps also they stick out disproportionally - when you see one it's a bit of a black swan moment (I think I'm using the right metaphor). In classic marketing theory, the tipping point (where owners begin to miss out on projects because they don't have the right kit) starts at around 16% market penetration; so we've a long way to go yet. We're all trying to push the Swedish way, but it took 30 years to saturate the market over there.

 

[Komatsu]

That is one hell of a productivity jump. Just hope he is working for a decent lot who don't suddenly decide they could save a few quid by taking it in house with their own machine and employed operator now he has shown them the way to go.

Why do you have to be do f@#king negative Graham???....maybe, just maybe they value what he is doing and in return he’s invested in the kit so both him and his client are winning on the contracts that they do. I’ll also bet pound to a penny that if they understand what he’s doing they’ll also understand that you can’t stick any Tom, Dick or Harry on a machine spec’d like that and expect the same results.

 

[Engcon UK]

Why do you have to be do f@#king negative Graham???....maybe, just maybe they value what he is doing and in return he’s invested in the kit so both him and his client are winning on the contracts that they do. I’ll also bet pound to a penny that if they understand what he’s doing they’ll also understand that you can’t stick any Tom, Dick or Harry on a machine spec’d like that and expect the same results.

Without taking sides, I would say that the chances of this happening are vanishingly small. Miller are developers and wouldn't have this on their books and the contractor would be more likely to hire more Richards (or get Richard to hire more Richards).

The losers in this scenario are likely to be the lower spec'd operators. All, as always, IMHO

 

[Grahams]

Perhaps also they stick out disproportionally - when you see one it's a bit of a black swan moment (I think I'm using the right metaphor). In classic marketing theory, the tipping point (where owners begin to miss out on projects because they don't have the right kit) starts at around 16% market penetration; so we've a long way to go yet. We're all trying to push the Swedish way, but it took 30 years to saturate the market over there.

You are probably right. I tend to look for tilties as I drive past, so see them. One on my way home along the M27 smart motorway upgrade and one 3D sat guidance system, but a lot of standard machines.

 

[Grahams]

Why do you have to be do f@#king negative Graham???....maybe, just maybe they value what he is doing and in return he’s invested in the kit so both him and his client are winning on the contracts that they do. I’ll also bet pound to a penny that if they understand what he’s doing they’ll also understand that you can’t stick any Tom, Dick or Harry on a machine spec’d like that and expect the same results.

I’m not knocking him. I think it is a fantastic set up. I wish the MOD invested in those style drawings of my work. I would jump at a 3D set up to improve my productivity by double, let alone ten times. It is just that it happened to me. I spent years and tens of thousands of pounds sorting out how to efficiently do some work for an MOD management company and having sussed it out was making good money. So much so that they came and photographed all my kit, copied it and suddenly I got no more calls to tender for those jobs. At the time I had just signed up for my Volvo duck. Hadn’t even been delivered.
Unfortunately the comment about understanding how good he is doesn’t cut it with accountants, they only see spread sheets and bottom line. They don’t seem to care if it comes back to haunt them later on, but by then it can be too late for the poor guy who has been pushed out.

 

[Furniss]

I am trying my best to justify buying into a tiltrotator but struggle to see a 30% time saving on my work which is 75% sewage treatment installations.
Trenches/tank holes/pipe bedding/soakaways/graveling up/ backfill etc 3 days actual digger work on an install turned into 2 ish

 

[doobin]

if they understand what he’s doing they’ll also understand that you can’t stick any Tom, Dick or Harry on a machine spec’d like that and expect the same results.

That's the end goal of machine guidance. All the operator will do is pull the levers at roughly the right time and fulfil the H+S element of having an operator in the seat (for now!)

You've only got to look at the tractors that drive themselves on most big UK arable farms.

 

[Left hooker]

I am trying my best to justify buying into a tiltrotator but struggle to see a 30% time saving on my work which is 75% sewage treatment installations.
Trenches/tank holes/pipe bedding/soakaways/graveling up/ backfill etc 3 days actual digger work on an install turned into 2 ish

Price work ? If so it's a winner as price like anyone else that don't have one and gain a days extra pay for finishing day Early

 

[Komatsu]

I am trying my best to justify buying into a tiltrotator but struggle to see a 30% time saving on my work which is 75% sewage treatment installations.
Trenches/tank holes/pipe bedding/soakaways/graveling up/ backfill etc 3 days actual digger work on an install turned into 2 ish

There’s nothing wrong in that, they’re not for everyone’s line of work, and there’s certainly no point in having one for the sake of it to keep up with the Jones.....and if your trying to justify it, your obviously doing your home work into them, so when/if the time arises you know what to get and what savings you’ll be able to make

 

[Grahams]

I am trying my best to justify buying into a tiltrotator but struggle to see a 30% time saving on my work which is 75% sewage treatment installations.
Trenches/tank holes/pipe bedding/soakaways/graveling up/ backfill etc 3 days actual digger work on an install turned into 2 ish

I gather you live in France, so I don’t know if Engcon or other tilty makers run try out days like happens here, but if they do, get your self down there and have a go and a chat to people who use them.
On one regular job I do it was taking me just under two days digger work with a tilting bucket, but when I up graded to a tilt rotator I am only a couple of hours into the second day and done. So probably a 30 to 40 % productivity increase, which allowed me to get home on the second day, not only saving two hotel bills but also freeing up a day for other work. Doesn’t take long to pay for a tilty like that.

 

[doobin]

I gather you live in France, so I don’t know if Engcon or other tilty makers run try out days like happens here, but if they do, get your self down there and have a go and a chat to people who use them.
On one regular job I do it was taking me just under two days digger work with a tilting bucket, but when I up graded to a tilt rotator I am only a couple of hours into the second day and done. So probably a 30 to 40 % productivity increase, which allowed me to get home on the second day, not only saving two hotel bills but also freeing up a day for other work. Doesn’t take long to pay for a tilty like that.

s**t, as much as that compared to a tilt hitch?

 

[Furniss]

Price work ? If so it's a winner as price like anyone else that don't have one and gain a days extra pay for finishing day Early

Yes all my work is price work - but would like to speak to someone doing similar work for actual savings.

There’s nothing wrong in that, they’re not for everyone’s line of work, and there’s certainly no point in having one for the sake of it to keep up with the Jones.....and if your trying to justify it, your obviously doing your home work into them, so when/if the time arises you know what to get and what savings you’ll be able to make

I have been looking at them for years - always seems to be something essential in the fleet needs updating though

 

[Grahams]

s**t, as much as that compared to a tilt hitch?

It’s the sideways digging that makes the difference. The access is so awkward moving wastes a lot of time.