General election - Vote here!

[V8Druid]

interesting article

Where are the JCBs this election?

The 2024 general election campaign has been marked by a distinct absence of JCBs.

www.theconstructionindex.co.uk

 

[TiltyShaun]

interesting article

Where are the JCBs this election?

The 2024 general election campaign has been marked by a distinct absence of JCBs.

www.theconstructionindex.co.uk

Or is it to do with the tax investigation?!

 

[V8Druid]

Or is it to do with the tax investigation?!

more likely I'd imagine ... seem to recall reading a £4b figure somewhere recently

 

[DaveDCB]

Seems Labour are bringing in the private school non vat exempt pledge.
I see many folk moaning about it, saying working families won’t afford it etc.. not being funny if you can afford £22,000 /yr you can afford the new £26,400 price tag! If it helps pay the teachers in the public sector more money I’m all for it!!

 

[TiltyShaun]

Seems Labour are bringing in the private school non vat exempt pledge.
I see many folk moaning about it, saying working families won’t afford it etc.. not being funny if you can afford £22,000 /yr you can afford the new £26,400 price tag! If it helps pay the teachers in the public sector more money I’m all for it!!

Don’t quite agree with your comments. My daughter is at a private school that is about the figure per year you quote. She was moved from her state school primary school after the teacher could not cope with 30 plus kids in her class with a part time teaching assistant. That state school receives about £8000 PA per pupil. I think there are about 7% of school age pupils in the private sector. If you think the additional taxation that this will raise will close the gap between private and state sector you are either misinformed or delued. In my daughters class of 15, one pupil has taken a state sector place in September and at least 8 are now planning on going into the local gramma schools rather than remain in the private sector. There will be many small specialist private schools that will end up keeping most of there pupils as there parents will obtain the required SEN statements meaning the state will pick up the bill in total as there local education system cannot offer the specialist education those pupils require. If those specialist private schools loss any other pupils and are forced to close the burden will again fall on the state sector. We have been looking at schools for my daughter to move too in 2 years time. One of the local church charity schools uses 15% of its school fees received to offer bursaries (No Fee Schooling) to under privileged pupils. How much of that is going to be cut from the budget and where do you think those pupils will end up?
The current labour party estimate is the tax will raise enough money to pay for an additional 6000 teachers in the state sector. That is about one quarter of a full time teacher for each state school. Good luck with that closing the gap.
The parents that can afford to send their kids to the likes of Eton and Marlborough Colledge are not going to blink at the additional cost. But parents like me and many others that will find the burden too much will look at alternatives. The fees for my daughter in 2 years time are over £30k a year plus potentially another £6k in VAT. We will stomach that for the 2 years until she is 16……but the greater chance is she will then be going to the local state college for her A levels…..because as always the devil is in the detail. The average fee that you quote is across all the age groups from reception to A level. The ones that are going to jump is parents like me…..at the top end of the scale…..as we will find that the additional cost is no longer a viable alternative.
This tax break that they are closing is completely a policy of petty jealousy from the likes of Angela “No Brain” Rainer, doesn’t understand that working parents like my wife and myself went private simply because we wanted something better than what the state provides. We dont have a bottomless pit of a trust fund and we know far more people in our situation than we do with the trust fund.

 

[Storrsy]

Don’t quite agree with your comments. My daughter is at a private school that is about the figure per year you quote. She was moved from her state school primary school after the teacher could not cope with 30 plus kids in her class with a part time teaching assistant. That state school receives about £8000 PA per pupil. I think there are about 7% of school age pupils in the private sector. If you think the additional taxation that this will raise will close the gap between private and state sector you are either misinformed or delued. In my daughters class of 15, one pupil has taken a state sector place in September and at least 8 are now planning on going into the local gramma schools rather than remain in the private sector. There will be many small specialist private schools that will end up keeping most of there pupils as there parents will obtain the required SEN statements meaning the state will pick up the bill in total as there local education system cannot offer the specialist education those pupils require. If those specialist private schools loss any other pupils and are forced to close the burden will again fall on the state sector. We have been looking at schools for my daughter to move too in 2 years time. One of the local church charity schools uses 15% of its school fees received to offer bursaries (No Fee Schooling) to under privileged pupils. How much of that is going to be cut from the budget and where do you think those pupils will end up?
The current labour party estimate is the tax will raise enough money to pay for an additional 6000 teachers in the state sector. That is about one quarter of a full time teacher for each state school. Good luck with that closing the gap.
The parents that can afford to send their kids to the likes of Eton and Marlborough Colledge are not going to blink at the additional cost. But parents like me and many others that will find the burden too much will look at alternatives. The fees for my daughter in 2 years time are over £30k a year plus potentially another £6k in VAT. We will stomach that for the 2 years until she is 16……but the greater chance is she will then be going to the local state college for her A levels…..because as always the devil is in the detail. The average fee that you quote is across all the age groups from reception to A level. The ones that are going to jump is parents like me…..at the top end of the scale…..as we will find that the additional cost is no longer a viable alternative.
This tax break that they are closing is completely a policy of petty jealousy from the likes of Angela “No Brain” Rainer, doesn’t understand that working parents like my wife and myself went private simply because we wanted something better than what the state provides. We dont have a bottomless pit of a trust fund and we know far more people in our situation than we do with the trust fund.

100% agree. The way I look at it if your sending your kids to private then your saving the tax payer a fair burden. For reasons I can't quite fathom as there are decent primary schools nearby my sister chooses to sends her little girl to a private school. She is an artist living in a rented 2 bed bungalow so certainly isn't flush, I don't understand her logic at all but if she wants to scrimp and save in the believe her daughter will get a better education then that's up to her and as said who am I to argue- it saves the tax payer not costs it- I reckon though this vat element added now will be too much so she will most likely go state education instead- idiotic thinking from labour which doesn't surprise me.

 

[DaveDCB]

I didn’t just make the comments blindly… my sister went to private school, our family couldn’t really afford it at all, but regardless they made it happen… my wife and sister in law are or were both public primary teachers..so I fully understand the pressure they are under, 3 friends also the same - all but one of them remains in the job - who was ironically offered a job at local private school recently.
I don’t believe for one second they are going to get any additional teachers into public schools - more so replenish ones they have lost!!

 

[TiltyShaun]

I didn’t just make the comments blindly… my sister went to private school, our family couldn’t really afford it at all, but regardless they made it happen… my wife and sister in law are or were both public primary teachers..so I fully understand the pressure they are under, 3 friends also the same - all but one of them remains in the job - who was ironically offered a job at local private school recently.
I don’t believe for one second they are going to get any additional teachers into public schools - more so replenish ones they have lost!!

I am rather confused then that you are all for the policy if you don’t think it will make a difference. That was the point I was making. I don’t believe this policy is helpful to anyone. It will be interesting to see what the famed Office of Budget Responsibility makes of it. This was considered by Tony Blair and not acted on due to the potential for it to cost the state more than it would raise.

 

[Storrsy]

I am rather confused then that you are all for the policy if you don’t think it will make a difference. That was the point I was making. I don’t believe this policy is helpful to anyone. It will be interesting to see what the famed Office of Budget Responsibility makes of it. This was considered by Tony Blair and not acted on due to the potential for it to cost the state more than it would raise.

And as I understand it private schools cant reclaim vat either. So what they will now be able to claim should be factored in to the calculations....

 

[Lancs Lad]

Don’t quite agree with your comments. My daughter is at a private school that is about the figure per year you quote. She was moved from her state school primary school after the teacher could not cope with 30 plus kids in her class with a part time teaching assistant. That state school receives about £8000 PA per pupil. I think there are about 7% of school age pupils in the private sector. If you think the additional taxation that this will raise will close the gap between private and state sector you are either misinformed or delued. In my daughters class of 15, one pupil has taken a state sector place in September and at least 8 are now planning on going into the local gramma schools rather than remain in the private sector. There will be many small specialist private schools that will end up keeping most of there pupils as there parents will obtain the required SEN statements meaning the state will pick up the bill in total as there local education system cannot offer the specialist education those pupils require. If those specialist private schools loss any other pupils and are forced to close the burden will again fall on the state sector. We have been looking at schools for my daughter to move too in 2 years time. One of the local church charity schools uses 15% of its school fees received to offer bursaries (No Fee Schooling) to under privileged pupils. How much of that is going to be cut from the budget and where do you think those pupils will end up?
The current labour party estimate is the tax will raise enough money to pay for an additional 6000 teachers in the state sector. That is about one quarter of a full time teacher for each state school. Good luck with that closing the gap.
The parents that can afford to send their kids to the likes of Eton and Marlborough Colledge are not going to blink at the additional cost. But parents like me and many others that will find the burden too much will look at alternatives. The fees for my daughter in 2 years time are over £30k a year plus potentially another £6k in VAT. We will stomach that for the 2 years until she is 16……but the greater chance is she will then be going to the local state college for her A levels…..because as always the devil is in the detail. The average fee that you quote is across all the age groups from reception to A level. The ones that are going to jump is parents like me…..at the top end of the scale…..as we will find that the additional cost is no longer a viable alternative.
This tax break that they are closing is completely a policy of petty jealousy from the likes of Angela “No Brain” Rainer, doesn’t understand that working parents like my wife and myself went private simply because we wanted something better than what the state provides. We dont have a bottomless pit of a trust fund and we know far more people in our situation than we do with the trust fund.

It's typical labour ....they say the Tories are out of touch...has anyone not told labour we don't all work in coal mines or at BL anymore...average tax paying "working class" folk (50%, of the UK ) on 35k salary each now has 2 cars and a redrow hutch and wants to better themselves and provide a decent education for their kids.
It's a cheap pop at the "posh folk" usual vote gaining crap.
They'd save a damn site more if they started looking at actually who we are funding in UK education/health etc...sundip and his 6 kids that's just come over earning diddly squat as an Uber driver and more importantly paying out even less in tax...if he ever does owe anything maz the friendly tax advisor will ensure he doesn't pay owt.

 

[Storrsy]

I went to a small independent school in Exeter as wasn't doing too well. Managed to get a scholarship as wouldn't have afforded otherwise- tbh the school were good to us. That school has closed down now- I think this will be the final nail in the coffin for the smaller private schools who don't necessarily have a clientele of hedge fund managers but rather those who have made sacrifices to offer their children an alternative education experience.

 

[V8Druid]

I can completely empathise with Shaun's funding his daughter's private schooling. State ed. - is an ill disciplined free for all/zoo

'76-'79 I trained as a CDT (or whatever it's called these days - wood/metal/eng. drg., pottery, certain aspects of art, MVT, etc.) teacher, in secondary ed., in Redland Teacher training college, affiliated to Bristol Uni ...
The lecturers there were unreal -- HOD hadn't been in a school in 25 years ..
the two new guys, who'd started there, same time as me -
one had every letter after his name you could think of - and was a total loss but bullsh1tted eloquently ...
the other guy was just a muppet who'd been pushed through the system as fast as they could get shot of him and ended up there - couldn't sharpen a chisel

there's a saying in the teaching profession - those who can teach, teach - those who can't teach teachers -- so bloody true!!

my group was a mixed bag of mostly mature students - ex-RAF jet instructor, architect, carpenter, tool maker, tv repair man, a greengrocer, couple of overseas mature students from the states, various other odd balls, two school leavers, straight from school and me who'd had a year in a fab shop, putting some bucks together for the coming 3 years.

The lecturers were so poor, we all regularly held our own 'lectures' on a wed.s afternoon, (was an afternoon 'off'), on all our 'specialties' .. Mick the tool maker was awesome .. the chippy was brilliant .. the architect could draw with his eyes shut .. and I taught 'em all how to weld (MAG, gas and braze/silver solder) ... we all got each other 'sorted' .. and through it.

'79-'80 academic year I did my probationary year in the biggest comp in Gwent (1760 kids) 'teaching' (and I use the term very loosely) .more like crowd control/management/containment

Wasn't going to bother, as I knew I could earn far more in engineering industries locally, but - was the school I'd attended, which'd gone from a Grammar of around 400 kids to a comp. of circa 1500 in my 5th year - was some 'culture shock'
My old head of department came round the house one evening and literally begged me to take the post - I had spent a great deal of my time in my sixth form days standing in, in the department for a staff member out long term sick on & off, that they couldn't replace. He knew I could hack it .. and 'd been fairly instrumental in me going to Redland.

As said, even back then, it was more crowd control than teaching most of the time and the small percentage of decent students, got as much time as you could manage, in between stopping the other little tw*ts from either killing each other, or destroying the workshops.
Half these kids had a reading age of six .. or worse!!

Bear in mind that DCT has almost always been the 'dumping ground', for the 'non academic' ...
the highlights of my week were the couple of 'first and second' year groups, (11-13s), not yet corrupted and in an (unofficial ) A stream.

Many of the 'good kids' went on to do something with their lives and I still hear from many of them (even some of the idiots went on to amaze me !! Dezzy with a D is a paramedic - could barely spell his own name at 14 - first time I met him I asked how he spelt his unusual surname and the answer I got was "Desmond sir, with a D ") - it stuck

anyway, of all the ppl I kept in touch with from Redland, maybe only 30% actually went on to teach ... 12 months was enough for me and went back to engineering and eventually my own self employment.

fast forward to now, Pam's daughter is now teaching design, in the same school, which has now shrunk back to about 900+ kids ..
She was Plymouth Uni's student of the year when she graduated with a 1st Hon.s and is amazingly talented in textiles.
Ran her own bridal shop for several years designing & creating bespoke wedding gowns - spent a year before that as a pattern maker for one of the top gown designers in the UK.
Her talents are incredibly wasted doing what she does and the school is probably twice as bad as when I suffered it in my time there, with absolutely zero discipline, or the ability to administer it.
Again, it's crowd control mostly, with the odd interested kid, swamped in a sea of disinterest from the rest, with little chance to achieve, let alone excel .
She would be gone tomorrow, if an opportunity arose elsewhere or doing something different.
Trouble is it's 'convenient' and pays, but is not doing her health any good ...
most of her supposedly 'free time' (not at 'work') is taken up prepping for the next round

the point I suppose I'm making is that if you can remotely afford it and your child is capable even, let alone bright/enthusiastic/talented/whatever, it's a no brainer to get them out of the sea of mediocrity that is mainstream state schooling and give them the chance they deserve ...
Until such time as a decent level of discipline is re-instated in state schooling and a proper level of control restored, it is only going to go downhill even further .. and that is the root of 90% of the issues - there are no sanctions to control the disruptive elements, which drag so many down with them ....
and sadly many of the parents are to blame also - worse than their kids -

State education is headed only one way ....

when Clara reaches secondary age I will almost certainly fund her ed., if she's capable and she's certainly bright enough ATM

 

[DaveDCB]

I am rather confused then that you are all for the policy if you don’t think it will make a difference. That was the point I was making. I don’t believe this policy is helpful to anyone. It will be interesting to see what the famed Office of Budget Responsibility makes of it. This was considered by Tony Blair and not acted on due to the potential for it to cost the state more than it would raise.

In reality costs won’t go up 20% - they can’t surely make schools charge vat but not reclaim it? Don’t think there is any other business that has them specific regulations if so?

My point really is if you can make paying 22k happen you’ll make it happen for the extra cost!
Schools will have to be really bad in order for me to consider sending mine private, thankfully around our way public seem pretty good.. funnily enough all the private ones are full with waiting lists!

 

[TiltyShaun]

And as I understand it private schools cant reclaim vat either. So what they will now be able to claim should be factored in to the calculations....

The VAT that the schools currently suffer is mainly on utilities and capital projects. Under current rules if you become VAT registered you can claim back 7 years VAT on those capital projects. If this is allowed to happen, which I doubt, it would mean the larger more prosperous schools will have plenty of capital projects to claim back some money. The smaller schools will not have such a fund. So private education would then have to charge VAT. What about further education and Universities? What about people in there mid 20’s, like my older son, that after leaving the army paid privately to do accounting qualifications. Something that bettered his prospects to make him able to earn more……and pay more tax!!!
Our education system has become more of a mess since Tony Blair stated that University should be accessible to 50% of students. University courses have ballooned with the increased fees they receive, which is paid for by students taking on additional taxation under certain circumstances. We are churning out students that are primed for further study not for the workforce. The 50% that don’t make it to Uni and being left behind with no real skills.
What do we need from a government? If they concentrate on the basics of Defence, education and health it would be a start. Sending millions to Africa to educate there is not going to stop the boats. Until they recognize that the major number of boat migrants are economic migrants not those fleeing for true asylum reasons we are just throwing even more money at the problem without dealing with it!! That is probably off topic but it makes my blood pressure rise when Stammer thinks this is dealing with an issue that is great national concern. Rishi was just as misguided so don’t think my rant is anti labour on this point!!
If you are going to tax education, do it fairly and tax it on all that use it. Wouldn’t need to be very high a rate but see what uproar that would cause when students are rioting on the streets. Sort out the fat cats not delivering in the water companies, sort out the money wasted in the state sector, sort out tax evasion (Not hat the chancellor knows the difference between evasion and avoidance) but Jesus please don’t tax people that are using whatever means to educate there kids outside of state control as that is what this is really about. The misguided believe that the state can and should provide!!
For the record my daughter left the state sector with a below average reading age and well below in all subjects as she could not engage as she struggled to read. We spent 3 years in her early years wondering what was wrong. Being told she was just not bright enough. After going privately for a diagnosis as we suspected she was Dyslexic, we was referred to a Neurologist that diagnosed and treated her issues. She had retained reflex which meant she was unable to sit down at a desk and look down without standing up. No wonder she couldn’t stand school but had excelled in a nursery sitting. After we had her diagnosed and treated, our friend in the private school we know attend, mentioned that there early years teachers screen for retained reflexes in reception. When we went and talked to the school about her problems, which at this point we had treated, it was a breath of fresh air to find a school that knew and understood the journey we had been on. 2 years on we know have a girl that is reading above her age expectations, writing poetry and stories that are pushing her ability and now too of the class in science and not far off in maths and languages. The school engages with the pupils in a much wider way than the state is able to do so. A vast number may not be the educational genius that Stammer thinks are elite. But they are going to become well rounded, educated members of society that well put something back in!!

 

[6feetdown]

Public schools are there to keep the masses educated to a certain standard, they need less intelligent people to keep there 'lower end' jobs filled and keep the 2 party politics going. If most people had more about them they would see through this system we are groomed into.

 

[TiltyShaun]

In reality costs won’t go up 20% - they can’t surely make schools charge vat but not reclaim it? Don’t think there is any other business that has them specific regulations if so?

My point really is if you can make paying 22k happen you’ll make it happen for the extra cost!
Schools will have to be really bad in order for me to consider sending mine private, thankfully around our way public seem pretty good.. funnily enough all the private ones are full with waiting lists!

In reality the costs are going to go up around 15%. Most of the school budget is made up of staff costs that have no VAT to reclaim. The schools that are struggling and are worried that there clients cannot afford the additional increase will make some staff cuts and cut the Bursaries back. This is what will lead to the additional burden on the state sector.
Before we went private, I had been a school governor for 7 years and the chair of governors for the last 18months. I went into the voluntary position to see what education was all about. I am well aware of how many hard working teachers are trying there best. How many head teachers are struggling to balance budgets and provide with the resources that are stretched. What I learnt, was as the state provided more underfunded nursery places the worse the outcomes where becoming. We need a major reform of the education system. We send the vast majority of kids to school too early. We are providing child care not education. We have a class of people that think the state will provide and not have active family intervention. The description by @V8Druid of secondary education class control is real in most state sector inner city schools. Discipline and manners start at home. If that disrespect comes into school, the minority ruin any chance for the majority.

 

[TiltyShaun]

Public schools are there to keep the masses educated to a certain standard, they need less intelligent people to keep there 'lower end' jobs filled and keep the 2 party politics going. If most people had more about them they would see through this system we are groomed into.

You put my rant so simply into a paragraph!!!

 

[DaveDCB]

Here’s another wild comment while I’m digging holes…

Why pay to go to uni, rack up 60k+ of debt to then go work in a high street shop for the next 10 years!! freshers may well be fun but not at that expense!

 

[V8Druid]

........ We have a class of people that think the state will provide and not have active family intervention. The description by @V8Druid of secondary education class control is real in most state sector inner city schools. Discipline and manners start at home. If that disrespect comes into school, the minority ruin any chance for the majority.

not just inner city though Shaun .... could hardly call our local secondary school that .... as you rightly say respect and discipline should start at home and for a large majority of kids it doesn't .. then the teachers have to deal with kids that have none whatsoever, aside from try to educate them.

the odd few that have any 'standards' and want to learn, are swamped in this system, with little hope of a decent education there, sadly.

we have one, possibly two, even three generations of ppl that have been through this failinged system, who are now breeding yet another generation of delinquent animals, who have no idea how to behave, let alone give their elders any respect and have become the 'entitled class' with their hands constantly out, expecting the state to provide for them, without making any contributions for their entire lives.

I can not see HTF we are going to stop this cycle TBH ...

 

[doobin]

The way I see it, they've got some cheek to tax parents further who are paying out of pocket to provide an education system on par with the state system twenty years ago. Those parents have already paid extra tax by way of not using the state school place that would otherwise have been allocated to their child- they don't get a tax credit for that.

The country is broken.