Working in deep trenches.

[fred]

Had sewer put in today, the lads doing the road connection were about 2M deep in road. No box, stepladder to get out. 600mm trench.

These lads do this all day everyday.

The company (local firm, mid size 20 blokes) didn't provide trench box.

No bloody way would I set foot in that trench.

Now I know we all do take calculated risks from time to time, but to my ,mind 2m is too bloody deep. if the side slipped in while they were bent over at bottom cutting the clay s**t pipe. No way would be have been able to dig them out in time.

didnt like it at all.

 

[doobin]

Email to H+S executive mate.Can be anonymous.

 

[fred]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/lwit/assets/downloads/excavations.pdf

 

[fred]

doober, your right I should, the ground here was clay and not crumbling in. same site in the summer different kettle of fish.

The lads gave the impression 2m was nothing, they done much deeper....

I couldn't sleep at night asking blocked who worked for me to do that.

 

[JD450A]

All down to ground conditions and experience.

"These lads do this all day everyday."

Complacency kills, but I have and regularly do work in 2m deep pits. Provided you know what your about then there's not really a issue. You also always need to balance any positives associated with shoring works with the negatives/risks.... Shoring a hole that you deem stable not only increases the time your down there, but also adds other dangers like slung loads and more work around the edge of a hole.

There is no minimum depth for shoring and no maximum depth without. It is simply required when a competent person deems the ground to be unstable.

 

[doobin]

I guess it's like using a circular saw blade on an angle grinder. WIll probably be fine if you're careful. But if it goes wrong, the consequences are f****ng horrific

Really, the guys should be filling out a CIS 47 every time they do it

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis47.pdf

That'll keep them safe...


I get what Rory is saying. If I was sending gangs out doing it I'd want to be 110% sure the leader knew his stuff. But let's be honest, utility gangs are often not comprised of the sharpest tools in the box.

I propose we just stick these in every cab....

 

[JD450A]

I propose we just stick these in every cab
View attachment 4429

One of the biggest issues with our industry is hire companies manipulating h&s consultants to imply only they have the solutions.....

Green beacons, site dumper regulations, issues with safety rails on lowloaders, etc are all results of this.

Nor are enough people clued up on what there talking about or ordering..... Prime example this week has been all loads being slung and tracked across site as telehandlers are banned from moving slung loads.....

 

[TiltyShaun]

Many years ago I was a QS on a job where a worker was killed in a trench about 1.4m deep. He was bent over when it collapsed!! Makes me think more than twice before I get in a trench!!

 

[V8Druid]

One of the biggest issues with our industry is hire companies manipulating h&s consultants to imply only they have the solutions.....

Green beacons, site dumper regulations, issues with safety rails on lowloaders, etc are all results of this.

Nor are enough people clued up on what there talking about or ordering..... Prime example this week has been all loads being slung and tracked across site as telehandlers are banned from moving slung loads.....

rightly so too .... their stability is based on the load being stationary, on the forks, in line with their chassis centre line, as low as possible. not swaying side to side .. doesn't take a lot to get their wheels off the deck sideways, with a sway on. They're primarily designed to be lifting stationary ........ plus..... usually got a muppet at the wheel to add to the risk

 

[V8Druid]

Many years ago I was a QS on a job where a worker was killed in a trench about 1.4m deep. He was bent over when it collapsed!! Makes me think more than twice before I get in a trench!!

our leccy pole got changed last year, beside our drive ..... guys turned up with a 4CX ... op was good with it ..... dug a hole for the new pole, must've been 12+feet deep, One of their guys was in the bloody thing clearing a few inches out the bottom to sit the pole as they wanted it.
Not enough money in the world to have gotten me in the bottom of that hole

 

[sjs5060]

I'll chip in with my bit, which is worth exactly what your payin for it
I grew up on farm drainage where shoring was never even heard of, and when I look back at the near misses I could cry.
No I've grow up a bit and been involved in more civils stuff I've reached one conclusion, if it's above a meter I step it back, if it's above 1.5m it's a trench box, no ifs buts or feck all. I can put a lad in a trench and know without question he's safe, I'm not keeping half and eye on the trench being worried, life's to short for stress like that.
I am under no circumstances putting myself in the position that I'm knocking on a door telling my blokes misses and kids that they're husband/father has been killed one of my jobs, especially because I've adopted the 'it'll be reet' or 'we've not time' attitudes.
Not worth it.

I'm the first to call the health and safety bullshit that's way ott. But let's be honest, it all started because decent hard working blokes were dying because people took risks in order to make/save money/time or whatever.

Not having a green beacon has never cost a life, but f****ng about in trenches without shoring has relieved plenty of kids of their farthers way to soon.

Ste

 

[Bri963]

I've dug more miles of trench than I can remember, and a couple of incidents stuck in my mind above all the others. A two meter unshared trench, overnight one side had sheared and slipped, looked like a giant set of vice jaws had closed where the sewer boys had finished working the night before. The other, again about two meters, again nice and stable, dry, a tipper went past about forty feet away and one side of the trench unzipped and fell in. Suffocating in a bloody trench isn't how I want to go. Sorry to point out the obvious, we're all keen to talk about muppets on the job, but if you're happy to put your own safety at risk, let alone anyone else's, at some point you're going to end up as the muppet who should have known better. The boys who get killed are mostly the ones who haven't had a near miss to learn from.

 

[jd6820]

rightly so too .... their stability is based on the load being stationary, on the forks, in line with their chassis centre line, as low as possible. not swaying side to side .. doesn't take a lot to get their wheels off the deck sideways, with a sway on. They're primarily designed to be lifting stationary ........ plus..... usually got a muppet at the wheel to add to the risk

Yeah I agree with Druid on this one, fine if you are an operator as opposed to a steering wheel attendant. You can make a sensible judgement, I regularly carry loads with sling chains on telehandler, but slung as low as possible and the ground has to be pretty level. Something which many sites are not, combine that with a lack of experience and you've a potential problem. Added to the fact the telehandler training courses explain motion with the forks higher than a foot or two from the ground is not safe working practice. The bit where you have to apply the handbrake before operating the boom controls is just purely stupid though! They obviously haven't tried buckraking.

 

[doobin]

Let's say if you have a farm background, that should be an automatic 'experienced ticket' operator for everything!

All those in agreement?

 

[Brendan]

Was always told no minimum depth for shoring as it depends on ground conditions and anything over 1.2m deep should be stepped or shored regardless.
Most people do it bottoming out trenches just jump in for a quick few minutes.
Guys who were doing all the drains on one site refused to use boxes as it would have to come off their price (even though they were apparently sent the price with all the safety items added and just returned their quite to match) people like that are living on borrowed time and unfortunately it's the older generation that are set in their ways that will refuse to toe the line leading to younger guys refusing to do it as don't want to be seen as being soft

 

[Bri963]

It isn't an old/ young thing, there's too thick or stubborn to learn at all ages. There's as many young bulletproof teara***s as there are awkward old so and so's.

 

[V8Druid]

Let's say if you have a farm background, that should be an automatic 'experienced ticket' operator for everything!

All those in agreement?

except lifting

 

[JD450A]

rightly so too .... their stability is based on the load being stationary, on the forks, in line with their chassis centre line, as low as possible. not swaying side to side .. doesn't take a lot to get their wheels off the deck sideways, with a sway on. They're primarily designed to be lifting stationary ........ plus..... usually got a muppet at the wheel to add to the risk

Trouble is Grah, by banning Tele's from doing it and replacing them with tracked 360's with worse visibility and the same inherent instability with slung loads nothing is being gained... just a box ticked until the next rollover.

 

[Gunners]

All safety comes down to risk assessment which leads safe practices of work being devised. Now before you all fall asleep, it doesn't have to be long winded and difficult.
The blokes going down a 2m deep hole, unshored are no doubt doing so outside of their method statement. One day it will go wrong for them.
Telehandlers are designed to carry loads on the forks or bucket. Slung loads can drastically alter the center of balance and the machine becomes unstable. The safe working practice is to not carry slung loads. Simple.
Now we all do things that we know carry more risk and plenty of times it works out fine. This then becomes the norm until one day it isnt. People die in this game or maybe worse are paralysed for life etc.
Take the risks as you see them, everyone prioritises different things in life - I like to go to the pub and I cant get there from 2m below!

 

[V8Druid]

Trouble is Grah, by banning Tele's from doing it and replacing them with tracked 360's with worse visibility and the same inherent instability with slung loads nothing is being gained... just a box ticked until the next rollover.

a 360 is going to be a lot more stable than a tele, with a slung load though Rory, handled properly ..... teles just aren't up to it ..... with the boom in the air, on the move they are inherently unstable