The "Backhoe Thread" for backhoes and work done with them.

[doobin]

I wanted to offer something different from just being another mini - so only able to compete on price with that. Looked at Italian stuff - centre pivot artic backhoe, also small stuff e.g. Power Trac & even Struck as well as the small Italian. In the UK anything on a trailer is limited to about 2.6 metric tons + the weight of the trailer itself. Otherwise a wall of red tape kicks in, driver CPC, Operators Licence inc an approved place to park overnight, regular services by an outside body even if the vehicle only does low mileage unless your maintenance facilities & skills approved by 'them' . This can be increased to about 3.25t if the 4WD tow vehicle & trailer has air brakes - very rare - have never seen one.
So the owner op is left with a 2.6t max machine if not a self moving backhoe or 'rubber duck' 360. Otherwise he is totally in the hands of others to move his machine. I think this is correct?? I know farmers move big machines behind a fast trac but they have other use for the tractor.
So now basically it is a mini digger only for the owner op if the backhoe has gone out? I remember the CITB doing a 'long course' for earthmoving years ago. This would now consist of 360, Dozer & ADT, as scrapers drotts dragline navvies all gone & the '3Cx' pretty well joining them. Only other 'special' area that interests me is a slopes capable long & wide expanding track mini or 'true spider' like Graham runs. Doubt it would be the latter as work few & far between

It's really easy to get more money than others for a mini digger you can tow. Put the extra money into attachments for it. The key is not to try to be too 'specialist' whilst staying under the tow limit- rather, it's just to have the kit to be able to do the quoted job quicker and cheaper than a bunch of labourers.

Simple s**t like pulling up large lumps of concrete with a ripper and taking them to a seperate muckaway pile of clean concrete. For the £300 a ripper costs, you near enough get the money back in the £200 muckaway saving (£80/load clean hardcore vs £280 standard) plus your time saved, on the first job. Every other idiot builder is spending hours pecking at it, then scraping it and a load of mud out into a dumper with the bucket.

Towable plant has been a great niche for me. Mini loader would be another thing you could look at.

 

[Hg2702]

idiot builder

Builders Lives Matter

 

[AusDave]

I wanted to offer something different from just being another mini - so only able to compete on price with that. Looked at Italian stuff - centre pivot artic backhoe, also small stuff e.g. Power Trac & even Struck as well as the small Italian. In the UK anything on a trailer is limited to about 2.6 metric tons + the weight of the trailer itself. Otherwise a wall of red tape kicks in, driver CPC, Operators Licence inc an approved place to park overnight, regular services by an outside body even if the vehicle only does low mileage unless your maintenance facilities & skills approved by 'them' . This can be increased to about 3.25t if the 4WD tow vehicle & trailer has air brakes - very rare - have never seen one.
So the owner op is left with a 2.6t max machine if not a self moving backhoe or 'rubber duck' 360. Otherwise he is totally in the hands of others to move his machine. I think this is correct?? I know farmers move big machines behind a fast trac but they have other use for the tractor.
So now basically it is a mini digger only for the owner op if the backhoe has gone out? I remember the CITB doing a 'long course' for earthmoving years ago. This would now consist of 360, Dozer & ADT, as scrapers drotts dragline navvies all gone & the '3Cx' pretty well joining them. Only other 'special' area that interests me is a slopes capable long & wide expanding track mini or 'true spider' like Graham runs. Doubt it would be the latter as work few & far between

This I guess is part of the reason I don't see JCB 1CX's much in their country of origin. 3.5+ tonne won't work on a trailer behind your small towing vehicle.
What I can use below is a 15 tonne GVM, Hino (Toyota) truck after I get my license endorsed by taking a lesson and test on what is designated a Medium Rigid truck. I have to have the truck pass a roadworthy inspection once a year, (some Australian states don't even require this), and pay a reasonable amount for registration and insurance. (No tacho's).

My truck also has a HIAB with 10m reach and the tipper payload is 7 tonnes. So I can have my 1CX plus buckets etc and a couple of tonne of concrete waste or greenwaste as per the pic below plus my alloy loading ramps. Can also put a trailer on the back for more tonnage. In Australia these Hino, Isuzu and Mitsubishi trucks are incredibly popular and range from 4.5 GVM which only requires an ordinary car license to bogie drive dual steer heavyweights.

It's a wonder heavy equipment manufacturers along with users haven't lobbied for changing your system which seems incredibly inefficient when most small contractors are limited to sub 3 tonne machines. Or pay through the nose plus punitive rules for heavier trucks. It's common for an average plumber or builder here to have a decent sized tipper or traybody truck with a 3-8 tonne excavator or skid steer loader. With so many skid steer loaders here, wheeled or tracked, the need for dumpers is minimal so they're not common on most jobs as the skid steer can load and carry a lot of material over short distances quite quickly as well as load trucks.
Feel so sorry for you in the UK

 

[fred]

get a tracked borehole machine, the type thats the size of a 2 tonner. Roll up on site do a soil test packup and be gone by dinnertime. £2k.

 

[Old Operator]

Think I am correct in my summing up of the towing rules?, much of it came from the late Trax on the old ceeform site. He really looked into this.
No you will rarely see a 1cx or 1cxt over here, for all it looks a nice machine. All these transport laws got tougher over time as the EU controlled more? The backhoe loader is still very popular in eastern Europe. The tail of transportation now now wags the dog of earthmoving in the UK. At least for the small guy. I was thinking small backhoe rather than standard, ie nothing bigger than the 2CX or the newer hystat version '3CX compact' of the 2CX - for the reasons above. By no means new, but if this not a good idea then the thing of well equipping a mini makes sense.
Doobin when you say mini loader what do you mean please? This was sort of at the root of the Power Trac or Bobcat skid steer with a hoe attachment idea. I had also thought as far as some kind of high discharge mini dumper. Are thumbs or 'grip talons' of use - I see them brought into play to shift a boulder or tree stump the bucket has dug loose. These are almost universal on USA tracked 360s according to what I see on TV shows but not so common here. I have used a ripper on a 3C but never on a small machine, will it rip concrete without pecker treatment first. I guess you will say depends on the thickness & strength of the stuff & whether any reinforcing mesh! The slopes thing is because I am in an area that has a lot of them (bit like the Welsh Valleys) but I see no need to go greater than 1 in 3 as more than this soil just slumps or washes away so will not self sustain unless largely rock (undiggable)
The £40K TBL came from Tarmac - they used to buy a number in one go keeping them only 3 years from new, had close links to JCB as used to build new developments for them, & it was probably a while ago it was said. Time marches on. Fred, just out of interest is a tracked borehole machine operated by just one man? The Pilcon /Dando towable tripod cable machines always needed two. I fear I know little or nothing of drilling, but know rogues in this game used to drill one hole & divide up the cuttings & claim they had drilled several if not closely watched!

 

[Old Operator]

Couple of old backhoes, second is me in the '90's

 

[Mogman]

Couple of old backhoes, second is me in the '90's

Ooh a Whitlock did they have hollow rams?

 

[Old Operator]

Not sure about the rams but the large bore of them might be that the operating pressures were not then that high? Note the sort of semi rotary union on the top of kingpost?? The machine is local & the pic sent to me this summer. Previous owner cosmetically restored it about 25 yrs ago. It also has a wire rope slew system, Soon after this they went to the linkage slew patent of V. J. Holopainen & kept it to the end. The JCB 3 from '61 on had side shift & was light years ahead - but probably dearer! The Whitlock would be a good restoration for someone?
Early Drotts only cracked off @ 1600 psi & could use re usable 'screw in' hose fittings that could be made up at home!

World's 1st All-hydraulic Backhoe | We are the Original Wain-Roy® | Woods Construction

In 1947, Wain-Roy® invented the world’s first all-hydraulic backhoe. Now, you can see that original backhoe at these shows. Woods Construction.

www.woodsconstructionequipment.com

Also Norwegian Atos hoe as brought back by Joe Bamford

 

[JD450A]

Not sure about the rams but the large bore of them might be that the operating pressures were not then that high? Note the sort of semi rotary union on the top of kingpost?? The machine is local & the pic sent to me this summer. Previous owner cosmetically restored it about 25 yrs ago. It also has a wire rope slew system, Soon after this they went to the linkage slew patent of V. J. Holopainen & kept it to the end. The JCB 3 from '61 on had side shift & was light years ahead - but probably dearer! The Whitlock would be a good restoration for someone?
Early Drotts only cracked off @ 1600 psi & could use re usable 'screw in' hose fittings that could be made up at home!

World's 1st All-hydraulic Backhoe | We are the Original Wain-Roy® | Woods Construction

In 1947, Wain-Roy® invented the world’s first all-hydraulic backhoe. Now, you can see that original backhoe at these shows. Woods Construction.

www.woodsconstructionequipment.com

Also Norwegian Atos hoe as brought back by Joe Bamford

Is that Atos out of the Royal Engineers Engineer Plant Big book 1969?

 

[Old Operator]

It is out of the 1962 version of i think the same big book. I have had it years - it has a lot of stuff I used to use for volume calculations, job pricing etc
Aus Dave, I have re looked at the 1cx & the earlier version with a canopy at 2.8t might just about be legally towed on a 3500kg gross weight plant trailer weighing 660kg unladen, but would not allow spare buckets or hammer to be carried on the trailer. Looking though at the workshop forum on here most of the knowledge & help to keep a used small machine working seems to be on mini diggers, so this seems to be what most folks are using now over here

 

[AusDave]

Aus Dave, I have re looked at the 1cx & the earlier version with a canopy at 2.8t might just about be legally towed on a 3500kg gross weight plant trailer weighing 660kg unladen, but would not allow spare buckets or hammer to be carried on the trailer. Looking though at the workshop forum on here most of the knowledge & help to keep a used small machine working seems to be on mini diggers, so this seems to be what most folks are using now over here

Hi Old Operator.
I have an early 1CX canopy only too and it weighs over 3 tonnes. Front 4 in 1 bucket is over 250kg and you wouldn't want a 1CX without a 4 in 1. You may get to 2.8t for the bare 1CX machine but that's not going to do any work until you do another run to pick up front and rear buckets and attachments.

In Australia a large proportion of mini diggers are owned by tradespeople such as builders, plumbers and electricians who mainly do trenching. Landscapers often have a mini digger plus a skidsteer, as do a lot of earthmoving contractors in the under 12 tonne sector. You'll see a lot of trucks with an excavator in the tipper and a trailer carrying a skid steer. With the 1CX in the back of my truck I can do 95% of what a mini ex and skid steer combo can do
In the UK you're trapped into 2.8t or less by your legislation, efficiency doesn't even get a look in unfortunately

 

[Old Operator]

Hi Aus Dave,
Thanks for the input, there was a trend in the USA for compact backhoes a few years ago, & it was said in the small class that a 4 in 1 was less essential as a standard bucket would have a bigger capacity & fill easier. I am not sure this is true but I know that on a full size machine you end up manually shovelling the last bit into the front bucket on small jobs where you would have otherwise been able to clam this bit of earth!
If not a 4 in 1 I would want a thumb on the back for handling boulders & tree stumps, placing them into skips. What you say is just what I thought re. the machine taking the place of both a skid steer or dumper & mini. Pity it is no go over here because of stupid laws. A few Terramite hoes have made it over here, I found the Power Trac but doubt they made it outside the States. Likewise the Struck Corp - A small tracked hoe like the 1CX T, All of these about 1.5t but no spares back up where I am & not BSP fittings. I could drive on my licence a 2CX or later 3Cx Compact but as others have said it is a big investment for a small daily return here.
I am away next week but if anyone interested in the Whitlock I would be back after that Pete

 

[sandy59]

I've got a 1994 Lewis Badger, comes in at just under 3t, and with a Lewis trailer is just under 3.5t I believe.
It's was a great little machine for my home build shed project, only 30hp so quite economical as well, latest model is over 40hp I believe.
A few pictures of work done, plus trailer

:

 

[V8Druid]

Welcome boyo ... nice pix - we like pix here ..... did you buy the Badger new ?? looks in fine fettle

 

[sandy59]

Thanks, no bought it only a couple of years ago from someone who had spent a fair bit of time and effort tidying it up, came with 4 rear buckets and a set of forks for the front. I hired a truck and went down to Suffolk to collect it - won't be doing that again !! It's an early Mk1, I think there was a Mk2 & 3 as well, a few more pictures then :

 

[V8Druid]

have seen them advertised, mostly ebay, over the years and not paid them much attention really, but looks a decent little weapon .. just need plenty of space for a BHL - even a little one

 

[doobin]

I wouldn’t trade my e27 and multione for it, even if I have to make two trips.

 

[DaveDCB]

Price update, 3cx pro (whatever they are calling the top of the range one now) with 50k gearbox is 80k+
Not something I’d bother with, I used to charge hourly for travel anyway so paying more money for a machine to get there in less time doesn’t make financial sense to me!

 

[Old Operator]

Lovely pics of the Lewis Badger, earliest was built round a Ford mini tractor, when the supply of these dried up the next model used Ford axles & propshafts with a hystat tranny, Final model used Poclain individual wheel motors. Low sales meant the wheel came full circle & they went back to converting a far eastern hystat or manual mini tractor. Low travel speeds made me rule them out, along with instructions to always place the front bucket flat on the ground when using the backhoe. They are popular in cemeteries & other council jobs such as parks. Only little machine with a decent turn of speed was the 2Cx. In early times I remember a local guy having a MF 40. If you have to trailer a machine owing to low roading speed then you may as well own a tracked mini with better floatation. This is the painful reality of now, I suspect the prices of any 180 can only go up as sales drop off further.

 

[BillybobLockwood]

Digging a foundation out with my trusty Cat 420. Any tips for doing it without a grade man?