Tacho for 4x4 and trailer

[Grahams]

Guy who works for me got pulled over at a ministry check point yesterday. They did the checks on tyres, lights, wheel nuts, security of load, etc and all was fine. They sent him on his way saying that if a different branch had been there he would have been prosecuted for not having a tacho as he was going over 100km. What they then said was he could do it in log book form as he didn't tow all the time. He was too relieved to be on his way to enquire as to details. I've never heard of this and can't find any reference to it on the internet. Anyone got any ideas before I spend a couple of grand getting a tacho fitted?
Thanks

 

[TiltyShaun]

Rory will be along shortly. There are exemptions and rules that apply and I have heard the rule of 100km, I think it was recently raised from 50km.
Was he towing the digger as he is the usual driver?

 

[TiltyShaun]

Tachograph exemptions and rules when towing - Professional Pickup & 4x4

Do I need a tachograph when towing? Trusted and honest advice on the tachograph rules and exemptions from Professional Pickup & 4x4 Magazine.

pickupand4x4.co.uk

 

[Grahams]

Rory will be along shortly. There are exemptions and rules that apply and I have heard the rule of 100km, I think it was recently raised from 50km.
Was he towing the digger as he is the usual driver?

He only had the electric pallet truck and some bags of waste. I had the digger.
I know I should be using a tacho, but having had them fitted to all my vehicles at horrendous cost and only been stopped once, about 15 years ago, I didn’t bother getting one fitted to that one when I got it. I was more interested in the possibility of doing it log book style rather than paying out £1500 to £2000 for a digital Tacho which I don’t need to use most of the time.

 

[TiltyShaun]

He only had the electric pallet truck and some bags of waste. I had the digger.
I know I should be using a tacho, but having had them fitted to all my vehicles at horrendous cost and only been stopped once, about 15 years ago, I didn’t bother getting one fitted to that one when I got it. I was more interested in the possibility of doing it log book style rather than paying out £1500 to £2000 for a digital Tacho which I don’t need to use most of the time.

I am not convinced that an electric pallet truck and waste would fall within the exemption!! If he doesn’t then he should be under tacho rules! Not sure how the log book works as I fall under the exemption!!

 

[JD450A]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/754827/declare-heavy-goods-vehicle-does-not-need-tachograph.pdf

Option 3: Vehicle is not over 7500kg GVW or is part of a combination of vehicles not over 7500 kg combined GVW which is used to carry materials equipment or machinery for the driver’s use in the course of his work within a 100 km radius of base and where driving is not the driver’s main activity.

Bag of waste would count as materials generated in the course of the drivers work. Which is fine provided you have a waste carriers license.

Option 7 is also a good one: 7. Vehicle is used in connection with sewerage, flood protection, water, gas or electricity maintenance services, road maintenance or control, door-to-door refuse collection or disposal, telegraph or telephone services, radio or television broadcasting or detection of radio or television receivers

 

[Grahams]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/754827/declare-heavy-goods-vehicle-does-not-need-tachograph.pdf

Option 3: Vehicle is not over 7500kg GVW or is part of a combination of vehicles not over 7500 kg combined GVW which is used to carry materials equipment or machinery for the driver’s use in the course of his work within a 100 km radius of base and where driving is not the driver’s main activity.

Bag of waste would count as materials generated in the course of the drivers work. Which is fine provided you have a waste carriers license.

Option 7 is also a good one: 7. Vehicle is used in connection with sewerage, flood protection, water, gas or electricity maintenance services, road maintenance or control, door-to-door refuse collection or disposal, telegraph or telephone services, radio or television broadcasting or detection of radio or television receivers

Trouble is he was more than 100km from base, more like 400 miles.
option 4, not over 7500kg and not commercially carrying goods seems interesting. We do not get paid to transport our equipment, we only get paid for any work done at site. I wonder what the definition of commercially carrying goods means in plain English?
I am pretty sure I do need a tacho, it was just the inspectors comment that we could do a log book version rather than the digital tach at nearly £2000 plus on going costs that I was trying to find out about. Nothing I can find on line so was seeing if anyone on here had heard of it.

 

[Monkeybusiness]

I don’t know the answer from a legal point of view but am sure they want to know driver hours (hours ‘worked’ by the driver). For the sake of tacho hours/pushing it to the limit I think you need records of the previous fortnight.
You would need a diary to show what a tacho would - date, working hours/times, locations of start and end points etc. The issue comes with maintaining that diary (and having it to hand) all the time you may have to drive a vehicle under tacho regs. This may be a day a year, but if you get pulled you’ll need a complete diary for the preceding relevant time period (which I suspect is 2 weeks but am happy to bow to superior knowledge!)

 

[TiltyShaun]

Drivers hours – when you should keep records – Moving On

Many drivers find drivers’ hours and tachographs a complicated subject. If you only drive occasionally, it can be a real struggle to remember the details which help you to stay within the law. Here we provide some advice on what

movingon.blog.gov.uk

I think the diary is only for use in special circumstances. Your problem is the distance. That takes you out of exemptions!!

 

[JD450A]

Trouble is he was more than 100km from base, more like 400 miles.
option 4, not over 7500kg and not commercially carrying goods seems interesting. We do not get paid to transport our equipment, we only get paid for any work done at site. I wonder what the definition of commercially carrying goods means in plain English?
I am pretty sure I do need a tacho, it was just the inspectors comment that we could do a log book version rather than the digital tach at nearly £2000 plus on going costs that I was trying to find out about. Nothing I can find on line so was seeing if anyone on here had heard of it.

Tried the Option 4 argument on paper. Long story short any business related transport of equipment, plant, waste, materials constitutes the commercial carridge of goods.

I would strongly advise you look at the fines in question Grah. I think you will find the penalty for not having a tacho fitted is actually less than they could fine/hinder you for being over hours!

 

[Mintsauce]

I think at the roadside they will need records for the previous 28 days. Your record keeping at home or in the office is something like 2 years worth (would need to look the exact figure).

With charts i used to keep the current month plus the previous month in wallet/ book (something else they liked you to have). Digital does away with all that now.

I also keep a written daily record book showing the days and hours worked, vehicle milage, operating centre information, etc. There was a time when vosa used to ask to look at this (but won't look at it even if offered now) on the road side but that was a few years ago and I haven't been asked for this for some time now. I'm guessing they don't bother because written records can easily be falsified and they are tending to rely on the digital tacos for the story?

It's tempting to say get one fitted and keep to your drivers hours especially as Dvsa are now using operators as a cash cow and are profit driven. I can see the dilemma.

There is also new taco technology on the horizon (may already be in use but I don't know anyone using one), which uses Bluetooth to send your vehicle unit info to dvsa receivers on the roadside. So soon this will be the industry standard and the regular Siemens or Vdo etc will be superseded. is this good or bad I don't know, but you could say that if you keep inside the law they might be more likely to leave you alone.

Will any of the legislation be affected by us leaving the EU which is the place where it all comes from in my opinion?

 

[Grahams]

So it would appear, even when I had a Tacho installed I was doing it wrong. Most weeks we would only do half a days driving to the job with the trailer and half back, rest would be general work or driving non Tacho , but I never recorded any of it.
I have no issues with doing it properly, just want to make it as easy as possible and not waste more money than necessary.
I’ll have to think about what to do as I have been thinking about getting rid of our Isuzu and getting a van capable of towing 3500kg. Don’t want to pay to have two Tacho’s fitted.

 

[JD450A]

So it would appear, even when I had a Tacho installed I was doing it wrong. Most weeks we would only do half a days driving to the job with the trailer and half back, rest would be general work or driving non Tacho , but I never recorded any of it.
I have no issues with doing it properly, just want to make it as easy as possible and not waste more money than necessary.
I’ll have to think about what to do as I have been thinking about getting rid of our Isuzu and getting a van capable of towing 3500kg. Don’t want to pay to have two Tacho’s fitted.

If your going to go the legal route grah, Naff the trailers off, get a lorry with O license and be done with it. Then your lad takes the van and if you run out of hours you can abandon the lorry and still get home for the weekend with him.

Issue you have is not the drivers hours, but your weekly working hours the same as me. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...me-rules-lorry-bus-and-coach-drivers-and-crew

 

[Quattromike]

I would strongly advise you look at the fines in question Grah. I think you will find the penalty for not having a tacho fitted is actually less than they could fine/hinder you for being over hours!

I think they have the power to impound your vehicle and keep it for a good while. They were doing this up this neck of the woods with some of the tractor guys pulling non agri work. Alot of money in equipment to risk getting taken away. And it’s not just the towing vehicle it’s whatever is on the load also. I don’t know if they would do this for a pickup and trailer but we all know when the dvsa want to make a point they don’t half go to town.

 

[JD450A]

I think they have the power to impound your vehicle and keep it for a good while. They were doing this up this neck of the woods with some of the tractor guys pulling non agri work. Alot of money in equipment to risk getting taken away. And it’s not just the towing vehicle it’s whatever is on the load also. I don’t know if they would do this for a pickup and trailer but we all know when the dvsa want to make a point they don’t half go to town.

most likely with tacho's the worst they can do is impound for a 48hr rest period and force you to have a tachograph fitted.

Unfortunately they are a law un to themselves and due to people being happy enough to pander to them and pay roadside fines rather than drag it to court they are only getting stronger.

If you read the reg's, it's practically impossible for a self employed man or a small firm to be 100% legal. Fact is alot of the rules contradict themselves without the fact that those policing it are basically the modern highway men! Vehicle defects are a prime example, Unless you have a driver that knows his salt and can point out a fault that has developed en route then you'll get raped regardless!

 

[Grahams]

If your going to go the legal route grah, Naff the trailers off, get a lorry with O license and be done with it. Then your lad takes the van and if you run out of hours you can abandon the lorry and still get home for the weekend with him.

Issue you have is not the drivers hours, but your weekly working hours the same as me. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...me-rules-lorry-bus-and-coach-drivers-and-crew

I keep thinking about getting a truck, but the hassle of an o licence is too much for me. I struggle to keep up with the paperwork I already have.
There is no way I could ever stick to the working time stuff. I would guess technically this is work now and I’m about to go to our yard to load for Monday.

 

[Grahams]

If you read the reg's, it's practically impossible for a self employed man or a small firm to be 100% legal. Fact is alot of the rules contradict themselves without the fact that those policing it are basically the modern highway men! Vehicle defects are a prime example, Unless you have a driver that knows his salt and can point out a fault that has developed en route then you'll get raped regardless!

I agree completely, it seems the people who write the rules are always trying to push the small companies out of business.
We were very lucky they didn’t pick up any faults when my guy got stopped last week. I try to keep on top of everything, but there is always maintenance needing doing and not all of it can be done immediately.

 

[Smiffy]

I think at the roadside they will need records for the previous 28 days. Your record keeping at home or in the office is something like 2 years worth (would need to look the exact figure).

With charts i used to keep the current month plus the previous month in wallet/ book (something else they liked you to have). Digital does away with all that now.

I also keep a written daily record book showing the days and hours worked, vehicle milage, operating centre information, etc. There was a time when vosa used to ask to look at this (but won't look at it even if offered now) on the road side but that was a few years ago and I haven't been asked for this for some time now. I'm guessing they don't bother because written records can easily be falsified and they are tending to rely on the digital tacos for the story?

It's tempting to say get one fitted and keep to your drivers hours especially as Dvsa are now using operators as a cash cow and are profit driven. I can see the dilemma.

There is also new taco technology on the horizon (may already be in use but I don't know anyone using one), which uses Bluetooth to send your vehicle unit info to dvsa receivers on the roadside. So soon this will be the industry standard and the regular Siemens or Vdo etc will be superseded. is this good or bad I don't know, but you could say that if you keep inside the law they might be more likely to leave you alone.

Will any of the legislation be affected by us leaving the EU which is the place where it all comes from in my opinion?

Just to put a spanner in the works if running on disks you can't keep 2 months worth as there is a fine for keeping disks older than 45 days with you
Apparently the vdo's made in the last year have had the Bluetooth fitted ready for the new rules but don't know if it's true

The working rules are nigh on impossible to follow if driving isn't your main job
I can understand the need to police working time on long distance drivers but trying to make say a groundworker who takes a lorry to site follow the same rules is ridiculous and obviously made by someone who has never driven commercially
I don't see why I basically can't work a Saturday as I take a lorry to site but my colleagues who do the same journeys in vans are fine to do so

 

[doobin]

I can’t understand why they’d use Bluetooth and roadside receivers rather than just linking the tacho to the cloud via a data sim, same as every modern car or tractor. Are you sure the Bluetooth thing isn’t a pub rumour?

Come to think of it, I don’t think Bluetooth could ever pair quick enough to work with a roadside receiver as you drive past at 50!

 

[Smiffy]

I can’t understand why they’d use Bluetooth and roadside receivers rather than just linking the tacho to the cloud via a data sim, same as every modern car or tractor. Are you sure the Bluetooth thing isn’t a pub rumour?

Come to think of it, I don’t think Bluetooth could ever pair quick enough to work with a roadside receiver as you drive past at 50!

I'm not sure how it works but I know they are only short different receivers and transmitters
Also they don't upload that much information they can't read your drivers hours they still need a download for that there is a publication in one of the hgv mags about it but it's intended to catch out operators rather than drivers