V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
been trying for years to find PFI for it .... 's why it hasn't happened
A
AusDave
Well-known member
Unlike the current situation where nobody can agree and fake news abounds, "the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (Montreal Protocol) was an international agreement made in 1987, which has achieved universal ratification. It was designed to stop the production and import of ozone depleting substances and reduce their concentration in the atmosphere to help protect the earth's ozone layer."Just putting it out there, but what ever happened to the Ozone layer that was disappearing about 20 years ago and was all over the news?
It was agreed to by virtually all countries and had mechanisms to support developing countries. And yes China was part of it. You can read more at https://www.environment.gov.au/protection/ozone/publications/montreal-protocol-factsheet
In Australia where UV exposure is a big deal it has been calculated that 170–200 extra cases of skin cancer per million people per year in Australia would have occurred without the Montreal Protocol. In short it worked.
You will notice the world did not stop turning and we all still have refrigeration and air conditioning. According to the scare mongers at the time our standard of living would plummet. It didn't and it also removed a potent greenhouse gas from the atmosphere.
Unlike today where multilateral agreements are being shunned and a countries self interest is paramount, back when the Montreal Protocol was agreed to there was a sense of co-operation between countries and a belief that if we all supported each other in getting a better outcome then we would all benefit. It worked and is a contrast to what is happening now. The UK should take a close look at Australia and how we trade as a small nation. Our farmers are price takers not price setters, there are no subsidies and when Brexit is done the UK will be competing in the cold hard world markets. Our dairy industry has faced these markets and is just about done for here. The drought is the last straw and many dairy herds have been sold.
As for the UK coal industry closing being a disaster, the coal industry would have failed anyway. It was managed for the outcomes it achieved by the Thatcher Government who hated coal miners and couldn't give a toss about the socio economic outcomes. (We get a lot of news about the UK here. Don't forget we have the same Queen). When you see the scale of open cut coal mining in Australia and the low shipping costs you'll understand why British Coal was on the way out without extensive subsidies, (read taxes on you guys).
As I've mentioned before, a coal fired power station in Australia now can't compete on an economic grounds with wind power, and solar is about on parity now. Both wind and solar are on downward price trajectories as their scale grows and costs decrease. And as for people who say the solar panels cover good grazing land or other land, what a crock. Farmers in Australia who have wind turbines and solar farms are still grazing their stock between panel arrays and towers and know that drought or no drought, the rental $$ for the renewable energy infrastructure on their land will still keep rolling in
Apart from that, so many roofs can take solar panels, delivering power right to where it's used so not a great deal of land is required for solar arrays. In Australia the main determinate for solar array location is existing energy networks, so where they coincide with old landfill sites, contaminated lands and other waste lands solar farms are a great option.And as for storage, apart from pumped hydro, battery technology is also coming down in price and offers benefits no other power supply source can match, instantaneous supply in a fraction of a second. After a recent power supply shortage in one of our states after a storm brought down very high voltage supply lines, one of our tech billionaires challenged Elon Musk to build the worlds biggest battery to deal with such statewide outages in 100 days. Musk said he would and if it wasn't built in 100 days it would be free! It was built in under 100 days and has been running since then. The sceptics said it would only provide a few hours of power in an emergency and that is true, it wasn't designed to supply the state for days. It would supply power to manage demand and supply and stabilise the grid so that sudden outages didn't break the energy grid. It has done such a fantastic job of doing that that more batteries are being built and the stabilisation capability has saved millions of dollars in a very short time.
Briefly how this works is that when there is a grid failure like main lines down or a major failure of capacity at a power station, the battery comes on, like a computers Uninterruptible Power Supply, in a nanosecond. It supplies and stabilises the grid, then allows other sources of power to be introduced to the grid from hydro, gas turbines or interstate networks, matches the frequencies of these sources and nobody is aware anything has happened, unlike previous blackouts. It's simple, relatively inexpensive and works. Bigger batteries are on the way as more solar farms and wind turbines are built.
I could go on. There seems to be a lot of scepticism on this forum directed at others such as politicians, certain business interests and in general people who we disagree with. Scepticism is not a bad thing, and god knows it's well deserved in many instances. But when it's all you have, how do you work out the big problems in your community, your state, country or the world? Don't read Facebook for a start, as it's a conduit for fake news, bullshit and people having a go at each other.
I have been President of our local Community Forum for a long time, (no-one else will take the damn job). It's a bit like this and many other online forums. People come along and have a big whinge and want the Forum to sort out their problems for them. When we offer to help but expect them to put some effort into sorting it out with us they disappear, or go and complain on Facebook that no-one is listening to them. Our Forum has a good dialogue with some decent Councillors in our local Government sector. What a thankless task being a Councillor is! Everyone complains to them that their pothole is bigger than someone else's and no, they don't want to pay the rates that would pay for a decent roadbase and hotmix surface, just a pothole repair which lasts until the next rain.
It's no wonder local Government ends up full of self interested hacks doing backroom deal$ with property developers, ditto for State government.
So you can go either way, complain about the state of things, listen only to the news that supports your current opinions, blame everyone else or get involved and at least at your community level bring people together to resolve issues with consensus. It's hard work and sometimes you'll have to deal with people you despise.
But as the fires tear up our countryside, people realise that despite our differences, rebuilding burnt out communities is a common cause we all share, and we need to be better informed about how to prevent such disasters happening again and to know how to manage tham if they do. If we can't get together as a community to make the changes needed, they will be imposed on us by others, who don't share our connection to our places, or nature itself.
Furniss
Well-known member
Unlike the current situation where nobody can agree and fake news abounds, "the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (Montreal Protocol) was an international agreement made in 1987, which has achieved universal ratification. It was designed to stop the production and import of ozone depleting substances and reduce their concentration in the atmosphere to help protect the earth's ozone layer."
It was agreed to by virtually all countries and had mechanisms to support developing countries. And yes China was part of it. You can read more at https://www.environment.gov.au/protection/ozone/publications/montreal-protocol-factsheet
In Australia where UV exposure is a big deal it has been calculated that 170–200 extra cases of skin cancer per million people per year in Australia would have occurred without the Montreal Protocol. In short it worked.
You will notice the world did not stop turning and we all still have refrigeration and air conditioning. According to the scare mongers at the time our standard of living would plummet. It didn't and it also removed a potent greenhouse gas from the atmosphere.
Unlike today where multilateral agreements are being shunned and a countries self interest is paramount, back when the Montreal Protocol was agreed to there was a sense of co-operation between countries and a belief that if we all supported each other in getting a better outcome then we would all benefit. It worked and is a contrast to what is happening now. The UK should take a close look at Australia and how we trade as a small nation. Our farmers are price takers not price setters, there are no subsidies and when Brexit is done the UK will be competing in the cold hard world markets. Our dairy industry has faced these markets and is just about done for here. The drought is the last straw and many dairy herds have been sold.
As for the UK coal industry closing being a disaster, the coal industry would have failed anyway. It was managed for the outcomes it achieved by the Thatcher Government who hated coal miners and couldn't give a toss about the socio economic outcomes. (We get a lot of news about the UK here. Don't forget we have the same Queen). When you see the scale of open cut coal mining in Australia and the low shipping costs you'll understand why British Coal was on the way out without extensive subsidies, (read taxes on you guys).
As I've mentioned before, a coal fired power station in Australia now can't compete on an economic grounds with wind power, and solar is about on parity now. Both wind and solar are on downward price trajectories as their scale grows and costs decrease. And as for people who say the solar panels cover good grazing land or other land, what a crock. Farmers in Australia who have wind turbines and solar farms are still grazing their stock between panel arrays and towers and know that drought or no drought, the rental $$ for the renewable energy infrastructure on their land will still keep rolling in
And as for storage, apart from pumped hydro, battery technology is also coming down in price and offers benefits no other power supply source can match, instantaneous supply in a fraction of a second. After a recent power supply shortage in one of our states after a storm brought down very high voltage supply lines, one of our tech billionaires challenged Elon Musk to build the worlds biggest battery to deal with such statewide outages in 100 days. Musk said he would and if it wasn't built in 100 days it would be free! It was built in under 100 days and has been running since then. The sceptics said it would only provide a few hours of power in an emergency and that is true, it wasn't designed to supply the state for days. It would supply power to manage demand and supply and stabilise the grid so that sudden outages didn't break the energy grid. It has done such a fantastic job of doing that that more batteries are being built and the stabilisation capability has saved millions of dollars in a very short time.
Briefly how this works is that when there is a grid failure like main lines down or a major failure of capacity at a power station, the battery comes on, like a computers Uninterruptible Power Supply, in a nanosecond. It supplies and stabilises the grid, then allows other sources of power to be introduced to the grid from hydro, gas turbines or interstate networks, matches the frequencies of these sources and nobody is aware anything has happened, unlike previous blackouts. It's simple, relatively inexpensive and works. Bigger batteries are on the way as more solar farms and wind turbines are built.
I could go on. There seems to be a lot of scepticism on this forum directed at others such as politicians, certain business interests and in general people who we disagree with. Scepticism is not a bad thing, and god knows it's well deserved in many instances. But when it's all you have, how do you work out the big problems in your community, your state, country or the world? Don't read Facebook for a start, as it's a conduit for fake news, bullshit and people having a go at each other.
I have been President of our local Community Forum for a long time, (no-one else will take the damn job). It's a bit like this and many other online forums. People come along and have a big whinge and want the Forum to sort out their problems for them. When we offer to help but expect them to put some effort into sorting it out with us they disappear, or go and complain on Facebook that no-one is listening to them. Our Forum has a good dialogue with some decent Councillors in our local Government sector. What a thankless task being a Councillor is! Everyone complains to them that their pothole is bigger than someone else's and no, they don't want to pay the rates that would pay for a decent roadbase and hotmix surface, just a pothole repair which lasts until the next rain.
It's no wonder local Government ends up full of self interested hacks doing backroom deal$ with property developers, ditto for State government.
So you can go either way, complain about the state of things, listen only to the news that supports your current opinions, blame everyone else or get involved and at least at your community level bring people together to resolve issues with consensus. It's hard work and sometimes you'll have to deal with people you despise.
But as the fires tear up our countryside, people realise that despite our differences, rebuilding burnt out communities is a common cause we all share, and we need to be better informed about how to prevent such disasters happening again and to know how to manage tham if they do. If we can't get together as a community to make the changes needed, they will be imposed on us by others, who don't share our connection to our places, or nature itself.
Well said that man
Bri963
Well-known member
Well, Dave, a lot of good words there, but to pick up on your crock of s**t comment re solar, we have a land area less than 4% of Oz, much of which isn’t suitable for panels, and over twice the population So it’s not quite as simplistic when land is at a premium. Also one day the full story about all of these magic batteries will come out and you’ll find they’re far from green to produce. No plume of smoke doesn’t automatically equal green, by any means, unless it suits your narrative to believe it.
if Shunning multilateral agreements was a nod to our leaving the EU, you possibly don’t understand UK politics and economics as well as you think. You don’t need to be locked into an undemocratic cartel to be able to co-operate Internationally.
What really pees me off is the work that many responsible companies have done to clean up diesel exhaust emissions is totally disregarded by the green lobby as, since the VW scandal, apparently no engine manufacturer is to be trusted.
if Shunning multilateral agreements was a nod to our leaving the EU, you possibly don’t understand UK politics and economics as well as you think. You don’t need to be locked into an undemocratic cartel to be able to co-operate Internationally.
What really pees me off is the work that many responsible companies have done to clean up diesel exhaust emissions is totally disregarded by the green lobby as, since the VW scandal, apparently no engine manufacturer is to be trusted.
TiltyShaun
Well-known member
Catching up on this thread and firstly would like to say that this is undoubtedly a disaster for those caught up in it. It is all most certain that we humans are over populating the planet and that will at some point lead to our demise. We are totally out of sync with nature.
As for power we have Pv panels on our roof along with thermal water panels that produce a large amount of our annual hot water requirement along with panels to heat the pool. Am I a greenie, no! Do a like to have a bath with hot water that was heated for almost zero cost? Yes!!
Batteries are for cars are not the answer, not enough generation power to make it viable. Generating by nuclear still doesn’t not address the waste issue.
Burning wood chip....don’t start me on that government joke that has our local farming family burning wood chip to dry woodchip that could have been seasoned naturally!!
As for power we have Pv panels on our roof along with thermal water panels that produce a large amount of our annual hot water requirement along with panels to heat the pool. Am I a greenie, no! Do a like to have a bath with hot water that was heated for almost zero cost? Yes!!
Batteries are for cars are not the answer, not enough generation power to make it viable. Generating by nuclear still doesn’t not address the waste issue.
Burning wood chip....don’t start me on that government joke that has our local farming family burning wood chip to dry woodchip that could have been seasoned naturally!!
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