JD450A
Feral as Fk 🐾
Trouble Chinese products will always have is image and the tat they share there origin from..... Sany and Rhino are both Chinese..... You can't tell me that the latter doesn't tarnish it.
Storrsy
Well-known member
It's a bit like zetor and Skoda though. Perfectly good machines but haven't really ever escaped their poor man badge. Takes a long time to break from that
Regy53
I like cake
100% that's the main problem. Perception. As I said if I could bottle up what I saw and show you it would genuinely probably change anybody's view. You would also look and probably think as I do that it is a unstoppable force the resource is incredible . China build 3500 miles of high speed railway a year....... We struggle to do 200 miles in 10. They are also involved in a lot of projects we don't necessarily know about.
Regy53
I like cake
That's where it's changing. Resale is showing that. Sany are the No1 Chinese brand in the UK. The largest growing oem in the UK over last 5 years. And is no7 in UK for qty of sales .
Hitachi ,JCB, Kubota, takeucui, cat and bobcat are above .then it's Sany.
The absolute garbage that you see coming over in containers and knocked out for half the price is the battle and that perception is one that follows most of the Chinese brands around. As well as the amount of different names suddenly appearing in the market. I would say if your going buy a Chinese machine pick the manufacture wisely . Some won't last I don't think .
Furniss
Well-known member
can you honestly say what would your opinion be if you sold JCB Ross ?
nothing to do with the cost or quality afaic its about looking after ourselves
nothing to do with the cost or quality afaic its about looking after ourselves
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
..... that are realistically unachievable and set by some rose tinted spectacle wearing pr*cks who have absolutely no idea, or care, for what it is doing to the country (world) as a whole ... they just want/need/require to be seen to be pushing the 'right' agenda to suit their utopian ideas of how everyone should be 'leading' their greener than green lives ...
W
s who, as long as their lives remain unaffected, (big cars, private jets, etc., etc.) will continue to push their agendas for their own personal benefits and **** the rest of the world/population who're suffering the consequences of not being 'insulated' from the results of their idealistic (in their eyes/agendas) bollox 
Regy53
I like cake
I used to sell JCB and I don't have many in the yard. They were genuinely a poor machine and customers would have problems .They are and always have been machines that somehow can't get it right but I equally love the JCB story and invest in 3cx and loadalls as often as we are offered them.
I think all I'm trying to do is explain what I have seen . Buy whatever you want any of you but hopefully a bit more insight helps. By the way I'm not saying it's all perfect . The way china works is different there is a culture difference , sometimes they are slow on answers, old models have hurt perception , the sy26 quick hitch pipework is a bit exposed, we move it for customers , but all in all it's exciting enough to be involved with.
I think all I'm trying to do is explain what I have seen . Buy whatever you want any of you but hopefully a bit more insight helps. By the way I'm not saying it's all perfect . The way china works is different there is a culture difference , sometimes they are slow on answers, old models have hurt perception , the sy26 quick hitch pipework is a bit exposed, we move it for customers , but all in all it's exciting enough to be involved with.
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
basically Ross " Speak as you find " and first hand, personal experience is a great yard stick
Furniss
Well-known member
we keep missing the point afaic when discussing chinese machines but i give up
Regy53
I like cake
Is the point about keeping money in our economy and not sending it for others to better themselves ? It's very frustrating and we have done it for as long as I remember . The mg rover end In 2004 yet the police were driving around in non UK police cars etc . Look at the French all in Renault's. The whole system is broken when you go in depth with it.we keep missing the point afaic when discussing chinese machines but i give up
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
I see where you are coming from ...... but ... I wonder what percentage of most (if not all) machines comes from Chinawe keep missing the point afaic when discussing chinese machines but i give up
Gecko
Well-known member
Reminds me of a story a mate tells - he is (was) Canadian and joined the RCAF out of high school. Back home on leave he met a mate from school who was diving a car no one had seen. "What's that" was the obvious question. The reply: "It's a NEEEE-SAN - I've got the dealership for half of Canada".
Apparently, he did ok.
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Storrsy
Well-known member
It's got to come down to quality at some point, if it was accepted Sany were the same quality as say Volvo or JCB, same backup everything. But there's a 20% difference in price do we buy the JCB just to keep the money in the British economy? And how much of that is filtering back to China anyway as would imagine many of the parts are made there, look at landrover. Personally I like to put my money where I think I'm going to get the best return/service . 15 years ago I wouldn't have bought a Wacker over a Takeuchi, but one has upped their game and one hasn't (IMO) so things change.
Just being devil's advocate really- I'm not about to rush out and buy a Sany but cards are on the table
Gunners
Well-known member
That Shantui really wasn't a bad machine at all. Sure there was some bits I think could be improved, but for £23.5k with a millar hydraulic hitch, 3 buckets and 5 years full warranty, I thought it was great value. Felt like a machine from the early 2010's which everyone loves to harp back to - and came with a price to match.
I mentioned my concerns about the warranty, parts backup and longevity of the brand - its probably the biggest concern for us, especially as owner ops who need these things to work to earn money. Shantui, as with Liugong, Sany etc, are working hard to prove this isn't a problem. Only time will tell I guess.
The fact is, machines in this class have gone up 5-8k in the last 5 years and I don't think we are getting anything more machine for it. Materials have gone up 30-50%, maybe even more on some items. Labour? Sure, its gone up a little bit but I myself know I wouldn't win any work if I put 50% on my rate! So we have to look to economise somewhere. And our machinery is one area I think we could do this.
I actually think the Chinese are making the wrong products. I'm unsure about buying an excavator - its a big item for me, like we all do, we ask a lot from our little machines and we spend a lot of time in them. I just don't feel the Chinese machines, whilst good in most areas, they aren't exceptional at anything really. A good fleet machine - not necessarily a good owner op machine yet. Why don't they make dumpers? Had a price for £20+k for a straight tip 3 ton last month. God knows who much a swivel is! If China made dumpers, copy Thwaites, sell them for 2010 prices - I'd take a punt! The engine is the same anyway, very simple hydraulics, not much to go wrong - its the perfect product to gain a foothold. Same with diesel Wacker plates. I know they do them but I want a nice one, like the main brands, proper hand arm vibe dampening - but for half the price - I'd buy one!
@Storrsy what you really want to buy is a low hour'd 8026. Be ideal for your work. And whilst the cab isn't the biggest - they don't make a machine like the 8026 anymore. Everything's going single pump which is what makes it struggle to flow share.
My biggest concern however with the Chinese machine invasion (and cars while we are at it) isn't to do with keeping money in the economy (sadly that's long gone, the rest of the world owns all our companies and many of us have an iPhone which maybe Apple USA but its made in China...)
My worry is China love to copy and are very good at it. I personally haven't seen much innovation from them - especially in the excavator market. If they undercut the current crowd of manufacturers, it will start a cost cutting war which ultimately wont make our machines any better - if anything it will stifle innovation and everything will essentially become the same.
We see this with cars - everyone shares chassis, engines, design - even across brands! Why? To save money. Not to make a better product. Not to improve their offerings.
I think machines will go the same way sadly - none of it ultimately benefits the customer....
You heard it here first.
I mentioned my concerns about the warranty, parts backup and longevity of the brand - its probably the biggest concern for us, especially as owner ops who need these things to work to earn money. Shantui, as with Liugong, Sany etc, are working hard to prove this isn't a problem. Only time will tell I guess.
The fact is, machines in this class have gone up 5-8k in the last 5 years and I don't think we are getting anything more machine for it. Materials have gone up 30-50%, maybe even more on some items. Labour? Sure, its gone up a little bit but I myself know I wouldn't win any work if I put 50% on my rate! So we have to look to economise somewhere. And our machinery is one area I think we could do this.
I actually think the Chinese are making the wrong products. I'm unsure about buying an excavator - its a big item for me, like we all do, we ask a lot from our little machines and we spend a lot of time in them. I just don't feel the Chinese machines, whilst good in most areas, they aren't exceptional at anything really. A good fleet machine - not necessarily a good owner op machine yet. Why don't they make dumpers? Had a price for £20+k for a straight tip 3 ton last month. God knows who much a swivel is! If China made dumpers, copy Thwaites, sell them for 2010 prices - I'd take a punt! The engine is the same anyway, very simple hydraulics, not much to go wrong - its the perfect product to gain a foothold. Same with diesel Wacker plates. I know they do them but I want a nice one, like the main brands, proper hand arm vibe dampening - but for half the price - I'd buy one!
@Storrsy what you really want to buy is a low hour'd 8026. Be ideal for your work. And whilst the cab isn't the biggest - they don't make a machine like the 8026 anymore. Everything's going single pump which is what makes it struggle to flow share.
My biggest concern however with the Chinese machine invasion (and cars while we are at it) isn't to do with keeping money in the economy (sadly that's long gone, the rest of the world owns all our companies and many of us have an iPhone which maybe Apple USA but its made in China...)
My worry is China love to copy and are very good at it. I personally haven't seen much innovation from them - especially in the excavator market. If they undercut the current crowd of manufacturers, it will start a cost cutting war which ultimately wont make our machines any better - if anything it will stifle innovation and everything will essentially become the same.
We see this with cars - everyone shares chassis, engines, design - even across brands! Why? To save money. Not to make a better product. Not to improve their offerings.
I think machines will go the same way sadly - none of it ultimately benefits the customer....
You heard it here first.
Regy53
I like cake
Dumper market is generally a UK only one. It's not a big enough volume, good idea though
Curiously what is the ultimate owner operator machine. You would take bits of every brand I presume .
Vinpetrol
Well-known member
I agree with this sentiment but we are too small to have any effect .
We have to make correct business choices with the hand we are dealt . If that means buying from a Chinese co then so be it . It’s down to our government to make the decisions regarding what products are available to us and whether the country has the correct business environment for home grown and European companies to evolve
Storrsy
Well-known member
Thing is just because it comes from China it's not all bad news for our economy- unless the Chinese are flying in the Chinese to run dealerships too!
Lancs Lad
Well-known member
No there coming from Bangladesh....or it sounds like it on the phone
B
Brendan
Well-known member
To be fair with the car manufacturers they do it in a way to reduce engineering costs for design and r&d although companies like vag will then share their platform base across 4+ brands all sharing parts like the 2.0 Porsche Cayenne uses a golf r engine, Lamborghini and Bugatti are filled with random parts from across the whole range.
Biggest problem with the Chinese stuff is, it always has the perception of being cheap or cheaply made, you only have to look on Alibaba or similar and see some of the rock bottom prices, yes there is shipping, import and other fees which add to the final price here but when you see a "newcomer" enter the UK market they are nowhere close to being cheap enough, think it was mid 2021 when sany officially made big steps into the UK but yet the sy26u was literally 2-3k less than a JCB or kubota
Fair enough sany and some of the other bigger players over there are way above what the cheap stuff is but at the same time the costs over there are a fraction of what it is here and always feels like they are too dear for what they are, like you said about the shantui it feels like a mid 2000 machine and has what looks like the cheapest switchgear and levers they could find, and if the stuff that is on show is like that what's it like behind the panels. To be fair to the Chinese mainstream style machines they do come with twin aux and hydraulic hitch prep which lets face it should be standard once you get above 2t.
Will be interesting to see how they fair after a few years, I've not seen a sany sy26u up close since viewing one back in 2021, what sort of condition are they in paint and rust wise as lets face it the main brands are s**t paint just falls off my doosan/bobcat micro for fun even places that aren't touched, the same with my 8026 the build quality in places is appalling, paint has been touched up a few times when it was under warranty the front window still leaks after 3+ attempts by them to sort it and it just seems to be stuff they think is acceptable as places like tp buy them in hundreds and aren't too bothered by any little issues as long as it runs and doesn't break down in their cycle of buying and selling when in reality if you spent 30k on a new car and the paint started falling off in a year or the window leaked it wouldn't be acceptable.
Plant new and used is like the wild west, there doesn't seem to be any sort of accountability or comeback
Furniss
Well-known member
too idealistic I guess yeah
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