Red diesel.....

Lancs Lad

Lancs Lad

Well-known member
Any more news on this?
Had a good chat with good mate who runs decent size outfit today..
Reckons an average red theft on site costs him at least £1500 in damage and lost time etc. Fuel is the small bit...imagine when there all sat with white in them. They use the refuel pump etc so trash all sorts and the take that and the battery as well.
Reckons he's on the verge of calling it a day...not alone apparently. Crying shame as top bloke good employer looks after his lads well etc.
How tf have we got to this stage.
And yet as discussed at length the usual suspects locally doing ag/"forestry" will crack on as usual.
Rant over
 
Quattromike

Quattromike

Well member-known
Any more news on this?
Had a good chat with good mate who runs decent size outfit today..
Reckons an average red theft on site costs him at least £1500 in damage and lost time etc. Fuel is the small bit...imagine when there all sat with white in them. They use the refuel pump etc so trash all sorts and the take that and the battery as well.
Reckons he's on the verge of calling it a day...not alone apparently. Crying shame as top bloke good employer looks after his lads well etc.
How tf have we got to this stage.
And yet as discussed at length the usual suspects locally doing ag/"forestry" will crack on as usual.
Rant over
I've heard a local quarry planning having a fuel tanker come rouNd every morning to fuel up all the plant, have no fuel stored onsite and most of the plant empty or almost empty every night to discourage thief's coming round.
Can't see it working myself as imagine the hassle with that.
 
V8Druid

V8Druid

do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
I've heard a local quarry planning having a fuel tanker come rouNd every morning to fuel up all the plant, have no fuel stored onsite and most of the plant empty or almost empty every night to discourage thief's coming round.
Can't see it working myself as imagine the hassle with that.
night watchman with a bunch of gert Rotties and a Franchi SPAS 12 ..... just bury any visitors' remains in the morning
 
D

DaveDCB

Well-known member
It’s actually surprising how much the hourly rate is going to have to go up by, it’s a big enough leap for the small/mid size kit it run, heck knows what it’s going to do for the 30t+kit and dozers etc!
 
JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk 🐾
Dear Mr Sanders,

Thank you for your enquiry below.

I would firstly point out that any decision on using rebated diesel in a vehicle is a two part question. The first thing is to establish that it (the vehicle) is either an agricultural, special, or unlicensed vehicle. The guidance on what each type of vehicle is can be found at the bottom of this guidance.

The Memorandum of Agreement at Section 9 of Excise Notice 75 sets out how we define agriculture and forestry and some of the activities we accept within those definitions.

  1. Maintenance of existing Farm and Forestry tracks, ditches and associated infrastructure (e.g farm pipelines).
You may use rebated fuel for ditch clearing and drainage but only if it is done for the benefit of land used for agriculture, horticulture, or forestry. The MOA allows for the use of road plans for the repair of unsealed tracks, but that would not extend to laying of tarmac or new roads within a forestry enterprise as that would be regarded as putting in place the infrastructure to allow forestry activity, and not a forestry activity in itself.


2) Timber extraction, brash clearance and scrub clearance/land reclamation for agricultural use.

The MOA explains that you cannot use rebated fuel if you are cutting down trees or vegetation on wasteland. The clearance of the land is not an agricultural or forestry purpose, even if it is the intention that the land will then be used for an agricultural or forestry purpose.


3) Recovery of bogged agricultural or forestry equipment.

No.


4) maintenance of existing agricultural and forestry structures.

The MOA states that the “construction of buildings or other structures used for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture and forestry “ are not accepted as falling within the definition. As such, the maintenance of those buildings and structures would not be allowed.


5) loading of agriculture spreading equipment such as line or dung spreaders with agricultural inputs.

It would be helpful to have sight of the piece of machinery involved. The act of spreading agricultural inputs would be accepted as an agricultural activity so the vehicle (if it’s the right type of vehicle) can do that. But loading the machine sounds like it falls on the haulage side of the activity and can’t therefore use rebated diesel.


6) The movement of topsoil uphill to combat soil erosion in agriculture

Yes, if it’s te same piece of agricultural land. If this is the haulage of top soil from one place to another, and the person doing the haulage is not involved in the agricultural activity of raking in or spreading the top soil then it is not an agricultural activity, it is haulage.


7) The restoration of hedgerows and rewilding operations

The restoration of hedgerows could only qualify if they are used in agriculture – and that means they are there to contain livestock. But hedgerows around a crop field don’t serve any useful agricultural purpose. The rewilding operation would not meet the definition of agriculture because although they relate to nature, it is not an agricultural activity.


8) Maintenance and improvement of existing nature reserves, reed beds and moorland.

As with 7, this is not an agricultural activity however, the government is looking at certain aspects of land maintenance and, if anything changes, EN75 will be updated accordingly. Please refer to Excise Notic e75 when it is published at 1 April, or come back to me with this question.


Lastly could you confirm if machinery utilized solely for outside forestry or agricultural use can be utilised for other works when it returns to its place of usual storage. (E.g machine returns from a Forest and is used to load a lorry for a day or two in the yard before being sent back out to a agricultural operation).

The revised legislation will state that “An agricultural vehicle that is primarily kept for use within sub-paragraph (1) at a time when it is used for any other purpose on private land where it is ordinarily kept.”

So, provided it is an agricultural vehicle, that is primarily used for agricultural or forestry purposes, it can be used for any other purpose on the land where it is normally kept.

Paul Hutton - Senior Policy Advisor
Fuel Duty – Excise & Environmental Taxes Policy Delivery – Customer Strategy & Tax Design
HMRC, 3W Ralli Quays, 3 Stanley St, Salford, M60 9LA.
 
JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk 🐾
So I can use my spreader to spread lime, on rebated fuel, but I can’t load it in the field on rebated fuel?
I've asked for clarification of a few points....


"Thankyou for your response, Paul, I feel sorry for you and your department as it would appear you've a horrifically unworkable set of rules to follow, I also would like to state that I think it's outstandingly fitting to publish the new rules on april the 1st when they also come into force clearly giving industry time to prepare.

To clarify points
2, What about the raking and disposal of Brash and stumps following forestry harvesting operations prior to replanting

3, I assume then that should a timber forwarder, tractor or harvester become bogged I will need to drain the red diesel out of the machines on site that are also part of the harvesting operation, replace it with white, and then refill it with red after the stuck machine has been recovered?

4, so Maintenace is now no longer allowed? I was always under the impression that the repair and Maintenance of existing agricultural buildings fell under the premise of an agricultural operation?

5, Excavator or Shovel belonging or hired directly to the contractor/farmer responsible for the spreading operation. (Haulage not involved)

7, So any machinery used for the planting of trees for "Rewilding" rather than forestry cannot utilize rebated fuel.


Thank you for your time, Paul. I appreciate this email may come across as sarcastic or slightly taking the piss but aside from personal feelings that our industry is being royally screwed by our government, I must thank you for your answers and guidance, you're a gentleman.

Regards, Rory "
 
D

DaveDCB

Well-known member
Thanks for getting some clarity Rory, much appreciated. The biggest issue I have in all of this is the draining and refilling between specific jobs, What kind of red-white cross contamination is going to be allowed if dip tested? 1% 5%? Unless the tank is professionally cleaned out each time surely it’s going to fail a test even at them levels? *I’ve no idea how potent the dye in red diesel is.. 🤷‍♂️
 
JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk 🐾
Thanks for getting some clarity Rory, much appreciated. The biggest issue I have in all of this is the draining and refilling between specific jobs, What kind of red-white cross contamination is going to be allowed if dip tested? 1% 5%? Unless the tank is professionally cleaned out each time surely it’s going to fail a test even at them levels? *I’ve no idea how potent the dye in red diesel is.. 🤷‍♂️

I think the reality is that it's unenforceable..... it'll be interesting to see the responses as the week goes on and I poke a bit more. I expect they will enforce it via your tax returns myself.
 
6

6feetdown

Well-known member
I've asked for clarification of a few points....


"Thankyou for your response, Paul, I feel sorry for you and your department as it would appear you've a horrifically unworkable set of rules to follow, I also would like to state that I think it's outstandingly fitting to publish the new rules on april the 1st when they also come into force clearly giving industry time to prepare.

To clarify points
2, What about the raking and disposal of Brash and stumps following forestry harvesting operations prior to replanting

3, I assume then that should a timber forwarder, tractor or harvester become bogged I will need to drain the red diesel out of the machines on site that are also part of the harvesting operation, replace it with white, and then refill it with red after the stuck machine has been recovered?

4, so Maintenace is now no longer allowed? I was always under the impression that the repair and Maintenance of existing agricultural buildings fell under the premise of an agricultural operation?

5, Excavator or Shovel belonging or hired directly to the contractor/farmer responsible for the spreading operation. (Haulage not involved)

7, So any machinery used for the planting of trees for "Rewilding" rather than forestry cannot utilize rebated fuel.


Thank you for your time, Paul. I appreciate this email may come across as sarcastic or slightly taking the piss but aside from personal feelings that our industry is being royally screwed by our government, I must thank you for your answers and guidance, you're a gentleman.

Regards, Rory "
Shower of sh*t
 
JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk 🐾
Dear Mr Sanders



Thank you for the additional detail supplied below. As regards the further clarification sought:


2, What about the raking and disposal of Brash and stumps following forestry harvesting operations prior to replanting.

As part of an ongoing forestry, that is, it falls between the harvesting and replanting, it would be allowed to use rebated diesel. Where vehicles are involved they would need to be agricultural, or special vehicles as defined in the guidance.

3, I assume then that should a timber forwarder, tractor or harvester become bogged I will need to drain the red diesel out of the machines on site that are also part of the harvesting operation, replace it with white, and then refill it with red after the stuck machine has been recovered?

If you’re using vehicles that are already on site I would not expect you to drain and flush the tank. If however, you sent a lorry from the yard to drag the vehicle out, then that should be on white, because it is not involved in the forestry operation and dragging bogged down vehicle out is not itself an agricultural or forestry activity.

4, so Maintenace is now no longer allowed? I was always under the impression that the repair and Maintenance of existing agricultural buildings fell under the premise of an agricultural operation?

It wasn’t allowed before. It hasn’t changed.

5, Excavator or Shovel belonging or hired directly to the contractor/farmer responsible for the spreading operation. (Haulage not involved)
Provided the same contractor or farmer is responsible for the spreading operation, then we would accept this machine as being part of that agricultural activity.

7, So any machinery used for the planting of trees for "Rewilding" rather than forestry cannot utilize rebated fuel.
The rewilding operation would not meet the definition of agriculture because although they relate to nature, it is not an agricultural activity.

There are two definitions of forestry within Section 9 of Excise Notice 75. They are:

· growing or harvesting of timber or other forestry products

· forestry is the upkeep and management of forests including the growing and harvesting of timber and other forestry products.

Rewilding does not fit within either. It is Implicit in both that forestry is a commercial activity, hence it relates to the growing and harvesting of “timber or other forestry products”. If it said the growing and harvesting of trees, then rewilding would be accepted as a forestry activity.

Paul Hutton - -----------------------------
Senior Policy Advisor - Fuel Duty – Excise & Environmental Taxes Policy Delivery – Customer Strategy & Tax Design
HMRC, 3W Ralli Quays, 3 Stanley St, Salford, M60 9LA.
 
V8Druid

V8Druid

do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
at least you're getting responses Rory :oops:
 
Routy56

Routy56

Well-known member
I think the reality is that it's unenforceable..... it'll be interesting to see the responses as the week goes on and I poke a bit more. I expect they will enforce it via your tax returns myself.
Thanks for speaking up on behalf of us all (y)
At least with you in their radar, they might ignore me :ROFLMAO:
 
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