Operated Mini/Micro Digger Size & Daily Rates

[Old Operator]

Any thoughts on a minimum size of machine to run as an owner operator? I see what I think are 1.5 Tonners offered on ebay for an average of £ 220 per day all in. Lately I have done some garden/landscaping type works with a couple of hired in Kubota 008's. Stump removal, regrading etc. I did find them rather bouncy & twitchy compared to the JCB 8016 I used to hire. Granted that self drive machines are hammered anyway. I am governed by what towing vehicle I can fit in the garage - too rough an area to leave it outside. This means 2t or 2.1t as an absolute max, with a trailer of 364 Kg empty. So 1636 Kg my machine upper limit. Can anyone really make a living out of these? I come from an era where a 3cx was seen as a small machine.

I did have a thread on the old site concerning working on slopes, consensus of opinion was expanding tracks & long armed dozer blade. The main work for this evaporated but I would still be interested in this area as an extra string to the bow. I looked at an 8018 - slightly too heavy. Came across the Bobcat E14, or 16, Yanmar Vio models 15, 12 & 10. If I go too small adding a Baughans I8'' crusher bucket later goes out of the window. I just wondered if a Vio10 with an operator would seem a joke. Where I scored is people who have never operated even an 008 - thinking the time they took to learn would cost them dearly & they knew me anyway. We only had the 008 because it had to pass throu a narrow gateway & fold its ROPS bar to get under an overhang. That said it did in a day what would have been a killing week for 2 Labourers, so client (a retired council landscape manager) chuffed.
just wondered what other small guys were running?

 

[fred]

largest you can get that will go through a gate.

 

[Brendan]

Currently running a takeuchi tb108 does near enough all my work, fits through a gate. It's very old but has been ultra reliable always starts and bar normal servicing has only had the odd hose replaced, tracks and boom ram (my fault).
Keep debating updating it but if don't buy a new one, is it a case of buying someone else's troubles as there seems to be alot of 3 ish year old machines on the market
Only thing is it could do with tidying up a bit and a rebush/pin ideally would like a quick hitch - I know it's a bit of a luxury on such a small machine but last few jobs have required quite a few bucket changes per day and saves making do with the bucket that's on it.
Only other issues are the newer ones are a bit wider and no longer boom swing 90° both ways.

Only issue you have with a 1.6t payload is if you get a 1.5t machine you will be overweight by the time you add the buckets, fuel, mud on the undercarriage etc

 

[doobin]

Bobcat e10 on servos might be the best of both worlds for you? Mine should be here next week, I’ll let you know what I think of it

 

[Brendan]

Bobcat e10 on servos might be the best of both worlds for you? Mine should be here next week, I’ll let you know what I think of it

Used or new? Price? Was in takeuchi earlier today tb210r is £13.5k with 3 buckets, quick hitch and hammer lines

 

[Jimbo69]

Bobcat e10 on servos might be the best of both worlds for you? Mine should be here next week, I’ll let you know what I think of it

I’ve got the Doosan DX10Z which is the same machine, punches well above it’s weight in my opinion. Tracks expand quite wide so very stable and zero tailswing.

 

[Jimbo69]

Used or new? Price? Was in takeuchi earlier today tb210r is £13.5k with 3 buckets, quick hitch and hammer lines

That’s similar to what I paid for the Doosan.

 

[Brendan]

That’s similar to what I paid for the Doosan.

How are you getting on with it?
How does it cope digging at over 1m or full depth?

 

[doobin]

New. £13200 with Q/H, extra oil cooler and grader. Gonna use the other buckets from my mini for it.

 

[doobin]

Whatever you get you should get it with servos. The micros you're used all seem bouncy because they're on sticks. A KX008 can make even a decent operator look shite. I hate the f****ng things.

 

[Jimbo69]

How are you getting on with it?
How does it cope digging at over 1m or full depth?

Getting on great with it. Been down about 1.5-1.6m and it’s no problem, only thing I’d say it lacked is dump height. Loads a 1 tonne dumper no problem if it’s on the same level but if the diggers a bit lower it struggles a wee bit.

 

[pettsy]

I’ve used a hired in E10 a couple of times this year. Servo controls so much nicer to use. Punches above it’s weight as a micro (albeit 1.2t)

 

[Old Operator]

Re the Kubota 008's well the first one was fine on the digging sticks but very sharp taking off on travel (as if the brakes were sticking until high pressure) The second one smooth in this area but the slew was all or nothing unless selected with another service. It also lacked a dipper bottom bush, & the rear ROPS was loose & rattled like hell all day! I did note that the Yanmar Vio 10 & 12 had more track on the ground than the above - said to help stability (actually there is only 30 kg weight difference between these two models). On the issue of the levers by the side - are all these genuine servos - or a Bowden cable Italian system I have seen allowing joysticks remote from the blocks?
What I really wanted to know - is there a big daily rate jump between say 0.8 / 1.1t & 1.5 / 1.6t (c/w operator)
As to attachments to widen the usability - I would like to put a mech thumb on to handle stumps etc, if the smallest diggers had hammer lines, is it practical to plug in a jack hammer rather than a mounted one (dependant on flow & pressure) - this way you can quickly drill out a buried wall & still have the bucket to clear debris. Just the jack hammer could be once hired - Speedy I think
Baughans do an 18'' crusher bucket for 1.5t machines - is this idea much good (would anyone hire such a thing) - I have never seen one in use. I might have got away with this on the E14 but not any smaller.
I do have doubts about offering operated micro / minis in a world where 'Joe Bloggs builder' can hire just the machine & stick his own guy on it - for good or ill. He has to pay his guy anyway. I had pointed out to me a little machine like the 1CXT made by someone called STRUCK, alas no UK agent. There is a French mini with a very wide expanding track base, JMEKA. Sadly is 42'' wide closed up. Kohler engine good for 25 deg in any plane though
I would ask what you all mean by 'passes throu a gate' - the one we got throu was 34 ins or 38 ins if we had unscrewed the gate hinges. Any hi discharge micro dumper must pass throu same if muck away is needed. Next digger size up about 980mm or 1m wide - not sure if the gate thing trumps a bit more dig depth?
One thing that might limit me is where I store the machine - as the folding ROPS is only on the 1.2t & less - the Bobcat E14 for instance has a full fixed canopy. It may be easier to be able to leave the machine on its trailer locked up overnight. (if less secure!)

 

[doobin]

Rates are about the same but the someone wants a mini they want a mini and if the job needs a micro nothing else will do. So that’s why I’ve bought both.

If I could only have one it would be the mini, as the micro would be to small for a lot of our own jobs that I've quoted on.

 

[JD450A]

Rates are entirely what you make of them and all boil down to if the client thinks they are getting value for money. I do know of someone atm charging £400 for himself, a Micro, cabstar and tools per day. BUT that is a complete outfit with Auger and hammer for 10hr per day and he does make serious progress with it.

The place where people f**k up is transport.... Either not charging for it because "I've got to get to site anyway" or overcharging...... if your travelling 10mins to site no one will pay £50 for you to get there.....

 

[Gunners]

I've got a 2.7t and a 1.5t. If the 1.5 owed me anything I'd of traded it in for a Bobcat E10 or similar. In my opinion the 1.5t market is a bit pointless now, they don't fit through a gate and generally if its not gates you're going through its wide enough to get the 2.7t in and that will dig 3 times faster so gets used every time. Be good to see what you make of your E10 Doobin, the times I've hired one I've thought its pretty much where my (admittedly old) 1.5t machine is, just lacks a little reach but that's more than made up by its compactness.
Rates wise its the same to hire micro/1.5t and £40 difference to go up to 2.7t in my area. I've been known to charge £300 for one off weekend hires on my 1.5t, a decent rate in my opinion.

If I was starting out again, I think I'd get a micro and a track barrow. Even brand new you're looking at sub £20k for a complete setup including trailer. Get the right trailer and they would both fit side by side. There's plenty of work about, track barrow makes you more efficient and justify's your higher rate. Don't get me wrong I've done alright with my 2.7t but you have to pitch yourself to bigger jobs and the investment is a third more for only a small increase in rate. It is nice to have a heated cab and radio in winter though

 

[Brendan]

Htd 5 has gone up 2k since I got mine.
I've got a 3.5t tipper trailer and get the micro and tracked dumper on at the same time

 

[doobin]

I've got a 2.7t and a 1.5t. If the 1.5 owed me anything I'd of traded it in for a Bobcat E10 or similar. In my opinion the 1.5t market is a bit pointless now, they don't fit through a gate and generally if its not gates you're going through its wide enough to get the 2.7t in and that will dig 3 times faster so gets used every time. Be good to see what you make of your E10 Doobin, the times I've hired one I've thought its pretty much where my (admittedly old) 1.5t machine is, just lacks a little reach but that's more than made up by its compactness.
Rates wise its the same to hire micro/1.5t and £40 difference to go up to 2.7t in my area. I've been known to charge £300 for one off weekend hires on my 1.5t, a decent rate in my opinion.

If I was starting out again, I think I'd get a micro and a track barrow. Even brand new you're looking at sub £20k for a complete setup including trailer. Get the right trailer and they would both fit side by side. There's plenty of work about, track barrow makes you more efficient and justify's your higher rate. Don't get me wrong I've done alright with my 2.7t but you have to pitch yourself to bigger jobs and the investment is a third more for only a small increase in rate. It is nice to have a heated cab and radio in winter though

Agree totally regarding 2.7t vs 1.7t for rates. 15k for a 1.7t new or 26k for a 2.7t. That's 42% extra in purchase price, for like you say, hardly any increase in rates. If £300 a day for 2.6t vs £260 for a 1.7t, then its a paltry 15% increase in rate. Bloody pointless if most of your work is day rate.

Regarding functionality- most digger and driver jobs are really just a bit of scratching about, so the bulk earthmoving component isn't an issue. I'm not so sure they're three times faster, but haven't been a 2.7t for a while. Generally speaking most customers looking for a day rate digger and driver expect a 1.5-1.7t machine, so in my book that's where the money is. Often the access is small enough that a 2.7t wouldn't fit wheras a 1.7t with the tracks in would- I have the scratches to prove it

Quote rate is of course a different matter. But the negligeable difference in hire rate for a shitload more investment is what prompted me to buy a micro to supplement the 1.7t rather than get a 2.7t. Plus I can share buckets.

 

[doobin]

Rates are entirely what you make of them and all boil down to if the client thinks they are getting value for money. I do know of someone atm charging £400 for himself, a Micro, cabstar and tools per day. BUT that is a complete outfit with Auger and hammer for 10hr per day and he does make serious progress with it.

The place where people f**k up is transport.... Either not charging for it because "I've got to get to site anyway" or overcharging...... if your travelling 10mins to site no one will pay £50 for you to get there.....

Best way I find is that the 8 hour day has to include time driving to site. Seems 'fair' to the customer, rather than charging extra when it's just a trailer behind the pickup my guys would be driving anyhow. Larger kit that needs a lorry is of course a different kettle of fish.

 

[Antony Holmes]

if i was starting out with age my side (53 now and past all that bad weather )a heavy micro i think the bob cat sounds good would be the way to go along with a tracked barrow.
i run a 2.7 ton and do ok decent rates but mostly for bigger contractors.
i do lose a fair bit of private work to the guys with 1.5 ton diggers going out at £160 a day loads of them on gumtree (ok if want to work for that fill your boots ) as some jobs you could use ether size machine and even if the job would take them 2 days instead of 1 for me general house holders hear £160.00 a day and think we will have some of that.
the most calls i get that i cant help are for micro diggers may be a couple of calls a week.
have a tipping trailer and be able to hall stuff away and stone and sand in and i think you would be away.