Hookloaders

[Smiffy]

Trouble with the small lorry conversation is there are plenty of experts, and very few that have money involved and have run them. Myself Furniss and Hilux are the only ones whom I can put a name to without having to seriously rack my mind. I know Mr Pitt (Shaun) has past experience and Hg (harry gaydon).

I'm not sure on anyone else. Perhaps there are a few who don't post any photos but have vast life-changing experience.

Lorries are a finicky thing, particularly sub 18t, with tax class, weights and lengths playing critical parts and no two wagons really being the same.

In my experience which is pretty well documented here I've found what works best on the whole. Bear in mind alongside running chain lifts I've hired in tippers and hooklifts, and spoke to plenty who run other types and makes.

The only restricting factor with a chain lift tends to be the width it can carry, beyond that they are rather more flexible than most realise.

Whilst I don't run my own lorry I work for a company with a fair fleet including tippers hookloaders grabs and hiab/beavertails.
I have had the chance to work out of all of them so I am not as naive as you assume.
Infact working for a larger company with a lot of people gives a lot of exposure to different working practices aswell as the ability to make mistakes with other people's money. I have worked out of all the lorries and tried different methods with all of them.

 

[Smiffy]

Only bug bare I have is you need class 1 to tow even a poxy 1t 6x4 trailer with a class2. Yet car wollers now get 3.5t towing for free (again after I had to pay for it).

I'd love to be able to stick the mini digger behind the grab but I loath paying for a class 1 just to do so.

The biggest advantage of going to class 1 is for quick jobs or when everything has to leave site everyday. The shorter the jobs you carry out the more an advantage you will find.

 

[JD450A]

Whilst I don't run my own lorry I work for a company with a fair fleet including tippers hookloaders grabs and hiab/beavertails.
I have had the chance to work out of all of them so I am not as naive as you assume.
Infact working for a larger company with a lot of people gives a lot of exposure to different working pra have worked out of all the lorries and tried different methods with all of them.

I'd not say Naive, but I would say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The list of things SJS needs to shift would be ideally a 6 ton dumper (My Benford is 4.8t from memory) a 5 tonner (assume digger) and potentially a mini dozer (generally around 4t if it's the likes of a D21P, or around 6t if you are at a D31S)

A 12t tipper that you state can be loaded over the side will shift around 6t on average, If it's a Hook lift you can knock off another ton down to 5t maximum and that's assuming it's a well built truck with lightweight but strong equipment, most are not. Immediately then your looking at a 13t or greater hook lift to gain a sensible payload (Because trust me a 12t hook lift might carry 5t in the bin and be happy, but the chances are the axle weight on the front is miles more than allowable when you point load it with a 5t digger unless you sit the arm half a mile out the arse) a 13+ ton lorry is higher off the ground so this whole "load the lorry" thing rapidly fades away.

I'm not knocking what you think but this isn't the first time the subject of lorries has been discussed and you have disagreed with me on weights, configurations etc. It's very different having a fleet and picking the best vehicle for the job Vs owning a single truck and making it suit a variety of roles. Likewise working for a larger company won't give you f**k all experience in the realms of running costs, because trust me the running costs count miles more than anything else when your speccing a truck as a individual. I might be wrong but I don't think SJS has a choice between a 12t hooklift, a 8 legger grab a six wheel plant lorry and a artic. It's all about budgeting and weights are critical to this.

Anyway enough of that and back to what SJS actually wants -

That’s another thing while we’re on it Rory, will there be any taxation/other implications of towing a 3.5 ton trailer behind a lorry?

i do really need to be able to take 2 machines (water carrier & digger) but the rest of the time just want the shortest handiest thing possible

3.5t - Nothing really changes, worth checking with the insurer as they often work on the GVW for the insurance and if you want to include the trailer it's important to tell them the GTW (Gross train weight). You'll also need a Class 1 (C+E)
Trailers under 3.5t is exempt from MOT and O license (even behind a lorry) but often need marker boards/long vehicle plates to keep things legal. You also need to make sure your trailer lighting is up to HGV spec (Marker lights etc)

Any trailer under 4000kg makes no difference to taxation. Above that it affects the vehicles tax class significantly. In a Ideal world for me a 18t unit with tipper/grab and a triaxle drag would just be perfect - It also takes the 18t lorry from £300 Per annum to a daft amount.

Below is the tax rates, which you need to seriously consider and remember that we are currently on a holiday from the hateful Road Levy, which is far bigger than road tax, but does not apply to vehicles under 12t.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/907390/v149x1-rates-of-vehicle-tax.pdf

And the Road Levy prices (liable to drastically change after July) https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/760339/hgv-levy-bands-rates-tables.pdf

 

[Furniss]

Our laws are much more favorable for lorry if transporting your own kit and materials ...... no 'o' license - no inspections - no yard - no tax

Got to be some things go our way over here business wise because we get royally shafted most of the time

 

[Smiffy]

I'd not say Naive, but I would say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The list of things SJS needs to shift would be ideally a 6 ton dumper (My Benford is 4.8t from memory) a 5 tonner (assume digger) and potentially a mini dozer (generally around 4t if it's the likes of a D21P, or around 6t if you are at a D31S)

A 12t tipper that you state can be loaded over the side will shift around 6t on average, If it's a Hook lift you can knock off another ton down to 5t maximum and that's assuming it's a well built truck with lightweight but strong equipment, most are not. Immediately then your looking at a 13t or greater hook lift to gain a sensible payload (Because trust me a 12t hook lift might carry 5t in the bin and be happy, but the chances are the axle weight on the front is miles more than allowable when you point load it with a 5t digger unless you sit the arm half a mile out the arse) a 13+ ton lorry is higher off the ground so this whole "load the lorry" thing rapidly fades away.

I'm not knocking what you think but this isn't the first time the subject of lorries has been discussed and you have disagreed with me on weights, configurations etc. It's very different having a fleet and picking the best vehicle for the job Vs owning a single truck and making it suit a variety of roles. Likewise working for a larger company won't give you f**k all experience in the realms of running costs, because trust me the running costs count miles more than anything else when your speccing a truck as a individual. I might be wrong but I don't think SJS has a choice between a 12t hooklift, a 8 legger grab a six wheel plant lorry and a artic. It's all about budgeting and weights are critical to this.

We work to a schedule of rates so whilst I don't have the full running cost of each lorry I have to make sure the lorry on site is profitable and arguably this is a harder way to work as there is no variance. So therefore the lorry still has to be the most efficient possible.
Other than that everything you speak of depends on the individual spec of the lorry. Obviously harder to achieve with a second hand lorry.
But a 15t tipper on air can still be side loaded with a 2t machine a 15t hookloaders on air can if you have a low skip but you can't get the weight in. Likewise longer chassis's can specced to help get weight distribution correct.
And having a variety of lorries allows the advantages and disadvantages of each to be assessed. If I worked with a single lorry I wouldn't be able to guage this.
I am also fully aware that to get the most value for money running a lorry on a gang it has to do as much as possible.
Part of this moving materials. If you use builders merchants and want to collect materials a chain lift puts you at a huge disadvantage as you can't load multiple pallets onto it with a forklift. . If ofcourse you don't want to run your own materials that's not a problem. But carrying all our materials and taking muckaway back out is what makes the lorry pay. Take one factor out of that and it is more cost effective to pay delivery and muckaway.

 

[Bri963]

I'd not say Naive, but I would say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The list of things SJS needs to shift would be ideally a 6 ton dumper (My Benford is 4.8t from memory) a 5 tonner (assume digger) and potentially a mini dozer (generally around 4t if it's the likes of a D21P, or around 6t if you are at a D31S)

A 12t tipper that you state can be loaded over the side will shift around 6t on average, If it's a Hook lift you can knock off another ton down to 5t maximum and that's assuming it's a well built truck with lightweight but strong equipment, most are not. Immediately then your looking at a 13t or greater hook lift to gain a sensible payload (Because trust me a 12t hook lift might carry 5t in the bin and be happy, but the chances are the axle weight on the front is miles more than allowable when you point load it with a 5t digger unless you sit the arm half a mile out the arse) a 13+ ton lorry is higher off the ground so this whole "load the lorry" thing rapidly fades away.

I'm not knocking what you think but this isn't the first time the subject of lorries has been discussed and you have disagreed with me on weights, configurations etc. It's very different having a fleet and picking the best vehicle for the job Vs owning a single truck and making it suit a variety of roles. Likewise working for a larger company won't give you f**k all experience in the realms of running costs, because trust me the running costs count miles more than anything else when your speccing a truck as a individual. I might be wrong but I don't think SJS has a choice between a 12t hooklift, a 8 legger grab a six wheel plant lorry and a artic. It's all about budgeting and weights are critical to this.

Anyway enough of that and back to what SJS actually wants -

3.5t - Nothing really changes, worth checking with the insurer as they often work on the GVW for the insurance and if you want to include the trailer it's important to tell them the GTW (Gross train weight). You'll also need a Class 1 (C+E)
Trailers under 3.5t is exempt from MOT and O license (even behind a lorry) but often need marker boards/long vehicle plates to keep things legal. You also need to make sure your trailer lighting is up to HGV spec (Marker lights etc)

Any trailer under 4000kg makes no difference to taxation. Above that it affects the vehicles tax class significantly. In a Ideal world for me a 18t unit with tipper/grab and a triaxle drag would just be perfect - It also takes the 18t lorry from £300 Per annum to a daft amount.

Below is the tax rates, which you need to seriously consider and remember that we are currently on a holiday from the hateful Road Levy, which is far bigger than road tax, but does not apply to vehicles under 12t.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/907390/v149x1-rates-of-vehicle-tax.pdf

And the Road Levy prices (liable to drastically change after July) https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/760339/hgv-levy-bands-rates-tables.pdf

What does a 12 tonne gross skip wagon tare at with no skip on board?

 

[JD450A]

What does a 12 tonne gross skip wagon tare at with no skip on board?

Around the same as a hooklift bri, if not a bit lighter.

The 13t Merc sat at 6t empty so 7t payload - but had light gear on. The 15t sat at 7t empty with a 8t payload.

A friend runs two Daf 12t with very light pyramid brand gear, they will carry 6.5t but struggle to lift it as the gear is pretty pathetic.

 

[Bri963]

Rory I agree in the most part, it’s needing to move a 6 ton dumper which is the reason I’m thinking hooklift, I also fancy a mini dozer for f****ng about with and that would be a touch wide. That said if there’s not the secondhand bodies easily available for these hl7 things I may still get a chain lift and build my water rig on something narrower

What type of mini dozer?

 

[Bri963]

Around the same as a hooklift bri, if not a bit lighter.

The 13t Merc sat at 6t empty so 7t payload - but had light gear on. The 15t sat at 7t empty with a 8t payload.

A friend runs two Daf 12t with very light pyramid brand gear, they will carry 6.5t but struggle to lift it as the gear is pretty pathetic.

I love this type of thread, educational from start to finish. I’ve had bugger all to do with wagons apart from driving and fixing them. For me they’re a necessary evil whose sole purpose is to keep machines working, and whose driving seats seem to attract some varied and interesting occupants, especially tippers. Just reading the to and fro-ing on here and similar threads, with either a skip wagon or hook loader it seems that the bigger you can afford to buy/run/maintain the more flexibility it gives you in the long run.

 

[Furniss]

My Merc 18t Hook (plated 19t over here) is 8t empty - sits at 9t with a dropside body/barn doors- so would carry 9t in uk and carries legally 10t here.

 

[V8Druid]

My Merc 18t Hook (plated 19t over here) is 8t empty - sits at 9t with a dropside body/barn doors- so would carry 9t in uk and carries legally 10t here.

so a trip to the UK, fully loaded'd put you a tonne over weight?

 

[Furniss]

so a trip to the UK, fully loaded'd put you a tonne over weight?

Surely not if it's plated 19t

 

[V8Druid]

Surely not if it's plated 19t

well I'd have thought so, but where'd the 18t come from?

 

[Big Jordy]

Gona guess 19 ton is design weight and 18 is max GB weight, we just have to be awkward

 

[Furniss]

They worked it out in euros ...something to do with Brexit or the exhange rate
Fiik

 

[TiltyShaun]

They worked it out in euros ...something to do with Brexit or the exhange rate
Fiik

I think it is to do with VED.
My 18tonne beaver tail was down plated to 18 as the VED was cheaper.

 

[JD450A]

The 19/18t thing is to do with UK axle weights. It's the same outdated nonsense that prevents eastern European 4x2 tractor units running at 44t in the UK.

 

[V8Druid]

The 19/18t thing is to do with UK axle weights. It's the same outdated nonsense that prevents eastern European 4x2 tractor units running at 44t in the UK.

so how did they reconcile the idiosyncrasies when we were 'in the club' ????

 

[craig]

so how did they reconcile the idiosyncrasies when we were 'in the club' ????

They didn't, they cant agree country to country https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/weights-2019.pdf

 

[Lancs Lad]

@Monkeybusiness hows your day going...?