GazCro
Well-known member
Was speaking to some local tar lads and they had a transit doublecab tipper. Back half of cab used as van carrying breaker hand tools handbag wacker plate etc. Had it over a weigh bridge to check could carry 250kg in back
Hi guys, my names Liam I'm looking for some advice on starting owner driver excavator company
L
Liam1992
Member
Where about are you from in Cornwall mate?
S
Steve
Well-known member
St. Austell.
craig
Well-known member
Most of the posts on here seem to be steering @Liam1992 to a small machine, and @JD450A comment about the market being flooded.
Absolutely no idea on cost, but what about a hybrid/electric machine, and use that as the main selling point? Most manufactures offer one, being green is all the rage at the minute. Might open up some niche work, private works willing to pay the extra for greenness?
Just thinking of a different angle
Absolutely no idea on cost, but what about a hybrid/electric machine, and use that as the main selling point? Most manufactures offer one, being green is all the rage at the minute. Might open up some niche work, private works willing to pay the extra for greenness?
Just thinking of a different angle
GazCro
Well-known member
Have you seen any YouTube vids of them he'd need one of them huge generators to charge fromMost of the posts on here seem to be steering @Liam1992 to a small machine, and @JD450A comment about the market being flooded.
Absolutely no idea on cost, but what about a hybrid/electric machine, and use that as the main selling point? Most manufactures offer one, being green is all the rage at the minute. Might open up some niche work, private works willing to pay the extra for greenness?
Just thinking of a different angle
doobin
Well-known member
Double the cost of a normal one. Might as well have micro and mini!Most of the posts on here seem to be steering @Liam1992 to a small machine, and @JD450A comment about the market being flooded.
Absolutely no idea on cost, but what about a hybrid/electric machine, and use that as the main selling point? Most manufactures offer one, being green is all the rage at the minute. Might open up some niche work, private works willing to pay the extra for greenness?
Just thinking of a different angle
craig
Well-known member
Have you seen any YouTube vids of them he'd need one of them huge generators to charge from
[/QUOTE
I was just thinking something to make him stand out from the crowd.
If you could get something like the takeuchi hybrid with both electric and diesel power, but 240v rather than 415v, you could charge the customer for the green side of the machine/works, then plug it in to their socket so they pay for the electric
craig
Well-known member
I was just thinking something to make him stand out from the crowd.
If you could get something like the takeuchi hybrid with both electric and diesel power, but 240v rather than 415v, you could charge the customer for the green side of the machine/works, then plug it in to their socket so they pay for the electric
If you could get something like the takeuchi hybrid with both electric and diesel power, but 240v rather than 415v, you could charge the customer for the green side of the machine/works, then plug it in to their socket so they pay for the electric
craig
Well-known member
Fair enough, as said I had no idea on their price.
I think in the future we`ll see a lot more
GazCro
Well-known member
It wouldn't be worth the extra cost as doobin says tbh for the one job where a tree hugger might want you because of it. Ultimately it will always come down to cheapest and quickest job in the customers eyes, the art is getting them to realise if they use you they get a quality job done even if you're not the cheapest.I was just thinking something to make him stand out from the crowd.
If you could get something like the takeuchi hybrid with both electric and diesel power, but 240v rather than 415v, you could charge the customer for the green side of the machine/works, then plug it in to their socket so they pay for the electric
S
Smiffy
Well-known member
Was speaking to some local tar lads and they had a transit doublecab tipper. Back half of cab used as van carrying breaker hand tools handbag wacker plate etc. Had it over a weigh bridge to check could carry 250kg in back
If our gangs twin cab has to go in for tarmac we have to remove everything that isn't bolted down just to pick up shy of 500kg
We don't even bother putting materials on it anymore it's just used as a tm vehicle now
craig
Well-known member
Your quite correct,
but if as Rory says its flooded down there, he will need to be cheaper, better, or different.
He wont want to start being cheaper than the rest, its all down hill (unless everyone else is massively overpriced)
Being better will need a few lucky breaks, to get out there
Being different, there is only so much to digging a hole
Stay in his current job hopefully, then in a couple of months with better weather, some of the OP`s family/friends/relatives will want some work doing, hire a machine and make the most of the breaks? then decide if its for him.
Lancs Lad
Well-known member
Pondered this a bit but I think as said previously money generally talks louder than green tish apart the most obsessed freaksMost of the posts on here seem to be steering @Liam1992 to a small machine, and @JD450A comment about the market being flooded.
Absolutely no idea on cost, but what about a hybrid/electric machine, and use that as the main selling point? Most manufactures offer one, being green is all the rage at the minute. Might open up some niche work, private works willing to pay the extra for greenness?
Just thinking of a different angle
...some way off yet before they common place.Maybe you can properly silence a machine with adblu etc and just say ..oh yes it's hybrid...just a lil fan noise every now and again and fake engine sound to warn operatives...
Theyd prob be taken right in..look what's going on elsewhere with green wash .
JD450A
Feral as Fk 🐾
Most of the posts on here seem to be steering @Liam1992 to a small machine, and @JD450A comment about the market being flooded.
Absolutely no idea on cost, but what about a hybrid/electric machine, and use that as the main selling point? Most manufactures offer one, being green is all the rage at the minute. Might open up some niche work, private works willing to pay the extra for greenness?
Just thinking of a different angle
Trouble with any innovation is the big firms and rich twat second generation players will offer it for free to buy hires. Double the machine cost + charging hassle. Yes you'd gain work by having it with large firms that want to tick boxes but It won't pay better coin
The Sticker is on all the kit I own.
Gunners
Well-known member
So much to unwrap here. Everyone's comments are valid but we are all in our own areas and what works for one person in one area, might not work for another.
Step 1.
Like any business you have risks and rewards, if you haven't already I would sit down and work out what you want to earn in wage, what your overheads are (or estimate them to be) and then you can work out how many days you need to work to cover your costs and potentially what your profit might be. Then compare your daily rate to others in the area. Call them up, don't pretend to be a customer. Just ask saying you are also looking to start up and don't want to undercut them. You never know, they might be flat out and offer you some work to get you started? Its happened to me and I've done it to others so don't think I'm crazy. Or they could tell you to f**k off but that's always the fun part and they wont be much competition if they say that.
Essentially this is a form of business plan and you should have a good idea by the end of what you need to earn (I say NEED not want) what your costs are and what your profit might be (profit is separate from your wage - wages are cost) You can do this for any size machine you like, and see how they compare.
Step 2.
Having worked out what your overheads are, find out what your market is. This is much harder as you have to kind of take a guess where you think your customers will come from. But mull it over and see if you cant work for as many kinds of people as possible. I work for private people, builders, landscapers, schools, local parish council, farmers, Heathrow airport, hospitals. Start off trying to appeal to as many as possible and narrow it down as you go. For example, I no longer work for people with Horses - its always trouble but you learn these things as you go.
Step 3. Knowing what your market is now you can work out how to tell them about who you are and what you offer. Personally I have never paid for marketing, I think you can be smart in the modern day about putting yourself in front of people. Come up with a name, simple logo/ branding then keep it consistent across your website, google business page, facebook business page, twitter, instagram, farmbackup, yell.com (free listings only- don't pay!) If necessary find other business like yours who's blurb you like and copy/ modify it to suit your business and style. Use some unique photos of work you might have done in your mums garden, or you've done at work before to get you started.
So far you have spent £0
Step 4.
Ask yourself if you really want to do this. Like really really. My business journey (well documented on here and the old CEF forum) has been the hardest thing I have EVER done. And I constantly ask myself (and Rory) if I should just give it up and work for someone. And I've made money! Some dont.....ever! You have to really want it. Want it so much you would work 14hrs a day 7 days a week for months on end. Not go out with your mates, not go on holiday, and when things go wrong or it rains when you're topsoiling, or a trench collapses, you have to be wanting it so much you laugh at your luck and keep dogging on the job into hour 15 on a Sunday evening. Then when you get home, write some invoices up and quote the next job. Nothing any of us can say on here will prepare you for what its like, but when it goes right, its the most satisfying feeling turning a job from a quote to a payment in your account.
Step 5.
Having passed step 4 you must be as crazy as the rest of us so welcome to the club! Now its the fun part, buying the machine! This is mandatory to open to discussion on the forum and the Bobcat and Takuchi reps will fight over who offers the cheapest finance and who has the most awkward nipple to grease. Things to note here though - VAT. Register for it and you have to charge it on top of your rate. This makes you expensive to private customers but is irrelevant to other contractors and commercial clients as they claim it back anyway. So if you have identified private clients as a big market in step 2, maybe think about swallowing the vat on the machine so you don't have to charge it. This might sway you away from new to maybe a tidy used machine to get you started? Finance (some on here have forgotten) is impossible to get when you first start on the sort of rates some of us enjoy now. All play a part in your decision.
Step 6.
Now get to work! You will be surprised the phone will start to ring from your various online pages. Obviously very slow at first. Personally I would try and get started while you still have some employment, just say you are busy and can only do a weekend if someone calls (which is technically true). Weekend work build experience, brings in some cash, and gives you a start before you have to rely on the income.
I could go on here, there's so many lessons I've learnt the hard way. And if you're truly committed there's nothing that would put you off anyway. And you need that naivety to take the leap in the first place! Good luck and hope something of what I have written above is helpful to you. Ill leave it to Eric Cartman to summarise.
Step 1.
Like any business you have risks and rewards, if you haven't already I would sit down and work out what you want to earn in wage, what your overheads are (or estimate them to be) and then you can work out how many days you need to work to cover your costs and potentially what your profit might be. Then compare your daily rate to others in the area. Call them up, don't pretend to be a customer. Just ask saying you are also looking to start up and don't want to undercut them. You never know, they might be flat out and offer you some work to get you started? Its happened to me and I've done it to others so don't think I'm crazy. Or they could tell you to f**k off but that's always the fun part and they wont be much competition if they say that.
Essentially this is a form of business plan and you should have a good idea by the end of what you need to earn (I say NEED not want) what your costs are and what your profit might be (profit is separate from your wage - wages are cost) You can do this for any size machine you like, and see how they compare.
Step 2.
Having worked out what your overheads are, find out what your market is. This is much harder as you have to kind of take a guess where you think your customers will come from. But mull it over and see if you cant work for as many kinds of people as possible. I work for private people, builders, landscapers, schools, local parish council, farmers, Heathrow airport, hospitals. Start off trying to appeal to as many as possible and narrow it down as you go. For example, I no longer work for people with Horses - its always trouble but you learn these things as you go.
Step 3. Knowing what your market is now you can work out how to tell them about who you are and what you offer. Personally I have never paid for marketing, I think you can be smart in the modern day about putting yourself in front of people. Come up with a name, simple logo/ branding then keep it consistent across your website, google business page, facebook business page, twitter, instagram, farmbackup, yell.com (free listings only- don't pay!) If necessary find other business like yours who's blurb you like and copy/ modify it to suit your business and style. Use some unique photos of work you might have done in your mums garden, or you've done at work before to get you started.
So far you have spent £0
Step 4.
Ask yourself if you really want to do this. Like really really. My business journey (well documented on here and the old CEF forum) has been the hardest thing I have EVER done. And I constantly ask myself (and Rory) if I should just give it up and work for someone. And I've made money! Some dont.....ever! You have to really want it. Want it so much you would work 14hrs a day 7 days a week for months on end. Not go out with your mates, not go on holiday, and when things go wrong or it rains when you're topsoiling, or a trench collapses, you have to be wanting it so much you laugh at your luck and keep dogging on the job into hour 15 on a Sunday evening. Then when you get home, write some invoices up and quote the next job. Nothing any of us can say on here will prepare you for what its like, but when it goes right, its the most satisfying feeling turning a job from a quote to a payment in your account.
Step 5.
Having passed step 4 you must be as crazy as the rest of us so welcome to the club! Now its the fun part, buying the machine! This is mandatory to open to discussion on the forum and the Bobcat and Takuchi reps will fight over who offers the cheapest finance and who has the most awkward nipple to grease. Things to note here though - VAT. Register for it and you have to charge it on top of your rate. This makes you expensive to private customers but is irrelevant to other contractors and commercial clients as they claim it back anyway. So if you have identified private clients as a big market in step 2, maybe think about swallowing the vat on the machine so you don't have to charge it. This might sway you away from new to maybe a tidy used machine to get you started? Finance (some on here have forgotten) is impossible to get when you first start on the sort of rates some of us enjoy now. All play a part in your decision.
Step 6.
Now get to work! You will be surprised the phone will start to ring from your various online pages. Obviously very slow at first. Personally I would try and get started while you still have some employment, just say you are busy and can only do a weekend if someone calls (which is technically true). Weekend work build experience, brings in some cash, and gives you a start before you have to rely on the income.
I could go on here, there's so many lessons I've learnt the hard way. And if you're truly committed there's nothing that would put you off anyway. And you need that naivety to take the leap in the first place! Good luck and hope something of what I have written above is helpful to you. Ill leave it to Eric Cartman to summarise.
Attachments
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Brendan
Well-known member
Electric machines are just nowhere near usable, the idea is great but generally at least double the cost plus the hassle of charging it. Ideally 3 on phase needed for decent charging times, the hybrid need a cable plugging in full time on electric
Don't know how companies can justify them, jcb latest electric version of the htd5 skip loader is literally twice the cost and slightly slower top speed but can it do a full shift??
I'm sure there was a link on here to a company who bought electric skidsteer loader, they needed to buy two, as they only last half a day before needing charging so four times the cost than the diesel equivalent which you could fuel for a lifetime before it would even get close to two electric version cost
Don't know how companies can justify them, jcb latest electric version of the htd5 skip loader is literally twice the cost and slightly slower top speed but can it do a full shift??
I'm sure there was a link on here to a company who bought electric skidsteer loader, they needed to buy two, as they only last half a day before needing charging so four times the cost than the diesel equivalent which you could fuel for a lifetime before it would even get close to two electric version cost
GazCro
Well-known member
@Gunners makes some good points there. His step 4 is basically saying being an owner op is part work part hobby. That's something to consider because if you want to stay small by the time you've got enough hours work on to earn a living and then kept your machinery fettled it doesn't leave a lot.
Be prepared for the blame game of you get into working with other trades or others are gonna be following on after you. Its all too easy for a builder to blame the digger man for digging too much out if he goes over his price. You might never know but it can really impact on word of mouth for subsequent jobs even if the builder just got his price wrong as you never get to put your side across. I'm very lucky that 80% of my work ties in with the same trades so we all know how one another works so it avoids this.
Be prepared for the blame game of you get into working with other trades or others are gonna be following on after you. Its all too easy for a builder to blame the digger man for digging too much out if he goes over his price. You might never know but it can really impact on word of mouth for subsequent jobs even if the builder just got his price wrong as you never get to put your side across. I'm very lucky that 80% of my work ties in with the same trades so we all know how one another works so it avoids this.
T whiting
Well-known member
I'd reiterate what many of the others have said it's not a job being a owner op it's a lifestyle some days will be 730-430 but sometimes you'll still be there at 8 repairing something so you'll be back going again in the morning
As I see it there's 4 different practical ways to be a owner op that are viable
1. 1½t /micro on a trailer going job to job working mostly for private clients you end up doing some groundworks along the way but you often don't spend more than a week on a job which doesn't sound bad untill you realise you need 30+jobs a year and you end up driving a 1½ every day
2. 3/5t spend a bit longer on jobs and get to get your self settled in to jobs but transport becomes a hassle as it's too big to go behind a pickup especially with a pecker so your into needing a truck but that comes with the advantage of being able to do your own muckaway
3. 13t with a tractor and trailer to haul it around with comes with longer hires and bigger jobs but the rates tend to be lower for the outlay
4 3cx /rubber duck tramp from local job to local job and a low loader can soon be hired if it too far away comes with a mix of work some long stuff and some short with a mix of groundworks and spells of machine driving you'll be able to charge for diesel for tramping it but you will struggle to paid for your time to drive it there and there more expensive to buy
If you look at my profile I'm sure you can see which one I thought would be best but it's not quite a year since I started with a machine
As I see it there's 4 different practical ways to be a owner op that are viable
1. 1½t /micro on a trailer going job to job working mostly for private clients you end up doing some groundworks along the way but you often don't spend more than a week on a job which doesn't sound bad untill you realise you need 30+jobs a year and you end up driving a 1½ every day
2. 3/5t spend a bit longer on jobs and get to get your self settled in to jobs but transport becomes a hassle as it's too big to go behind a pickup especially with a pecker so your into needing a truck but that comes with the advantage of being able to do your own muckaway
3. 13t with a tractor and trailer to haul it around with comes with longer hires and bigger jobs but the rates tend to be lower for the outlay
4 3cx /rubber duck tramp from local job to local job and a low loader can soon be hired if it too far away comes with a mix of work some long stuff and some short with a mix of groundworks and spells of machine driving you'll be able to charge for diesel for tramping it but you will struggle to paid for your time to drive it there and there more expensive to buy
If you look at my profile I'm sure you can see which one I thought would be best but it's not quite a year since I started with a machine
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
some great advice there guys . excellent post @Gunners and some interesting options too thomas - @T whiting
as said .... self employment / O/op / etc., is a way of life and one which eats into your entire life style .... you have a different 'boss' every job and a lot take 'some' pleasing .... you'll need to be damned near obsessed, not dedicated
as said .... self employment / O/op / etc., is a way of life and one which eats into your entire life style .... you have a different 'boss' every job and a lot take 'some' pleasing
.... you'll need to be damned near obsessed, not dedicated
GazCro
Well-known member
That's one thing i see on occasion self employed fellas who think they are in charge and not the customer. Yes if you work direct for the customer they have got you in because you know what you're doing and they don't but you still have to have that respect for them as if they are the boss. End of the day whoever is paying is in charge. There's a fair few jobs I've done which I've had more work from where other trades who've been there haven't been asked back purely from this.some great advice there guys . excellent post @Gunners and some interesting options too thomas - @T whiting
as said .... self employment / O/op / etc., is a way of life and one which eats into your entire life style .... you have a different 'boss' every job and a lot take 'some' pleasing
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