Grapple Saw

[1RB]

its to go on a 14 ton machine..

I get on well Doug & Andrew at Exac-1 & every thing they make is bomb prof & have excellent back up when needed, I did have a look at there new grapple saw at the apf & it looked a tidy bit of kit. The westtech I’ve been using is a 750 smart on a merlo but is heavy at about a ton but is built like a brick s**t house & has the ability to kick the saw box when the bar gets stuck out. I have worked along side a 210 long reach with Vosch on & one thing I noticed was it did have quite a lot of rotation power without having a worm drive rotator but I think it’s got 3 or 4 hydraulic motors on the crown wheel unlike a selector grab that has one. The gmt is light unit but is on a dangle mounted rotor so is good for dismantling trees with awkward branches but doesn’t cutting ash at the bottom but it’s fine if you take smaller chunks, the TTC holds the rotator but the tilt ram soon gets over powered & folds over.
We’ve also done a mod to lock saw cut because it works on a priority valve so when you close the grab the saw starts going but sometimes you are trying to get a good hold or just need to move the grab a bit & the saw comes out

With any of these grabs try & get abit of seat time because they all cut trees differently

 

[Smiffy]

Correct.

And it's worth noting they are all keen to stab eachother in the back for work

But I don't think the end of ash die back will be the end of them. These will be pushed into every sector of arb in the name of health and safety. I would be surprised if in a few years if you see climbers on commercial jobs. They will be left to thee smallest of domestic work and jobs where their is no access for anything mechanical. Be it grapple saw or mewp.

 

[GazCro]

But I don't think the end of ash die back will be the end of them. These will be pushed into every sector of arb in the name of health and safety. I would be surprised if in a few years if you see climbers on commercial jobs. They will be left to thee smallest of domestic work and jobs where their is no access for anything mechanical. Be it grapple saw or mewp.

Yep I think there's an element of those who make them and those who own them will basically make them appear the only safe way.

 

[Lancs Lad]

But I don't think the end of ash die back will be the end of them. These will be pushed into every sector of arb in the name of health and safety. I would be surprised if in a few years if you see climbers on commercial jobs. They will be left to thee smallest of domestic work and jobs where their is no access for anything mechanical. Be it grapple saw or mewp.

That and two rope working...

 

[JD450A]

I can't see them pushing out climbers... perhaps on roadside jobs but for the majority of removals a climber will remain.
Worth noting the most successful grapple saw setups have been created by lads that already climb.

 

[Smiffy]

I can't see them pushing out climbers... perhaps on roadside jobs but for the majority of removals a climber will remain.
Worth noting the most successful grapple saw setups have been created by lads that already climb.

I really can't see them remaining. If you actually take a step back and look at the job from a hse perspective how can you possibly dangle a person from a tree that you have absolutely no way of knowing the structural integrity of. Yes climbers know when it's safe and when not but there is no way of quantifying this without cutting into the tree to begin with.
And if the tree is in a park woodland field and so on their is now an army of materials handlers equiped to deal with them. If in am urban environment then there are more hiab mounted setups coming into service everyday, that will reach clean over the top of a house and dismantle a tree in the back garden. As @GazCro said the owners and manufacturers will slowly bully the industry around to grapple saws and mewps being the only option. Especially for commercial work. No business will take the risk of employing an arb contractor climbing trees as if something goes wrong they don't want to be blamed for lack of due diligence. They will stay longer in domestic setups but even then the amount of arb firms with track mewps now is staggering. I reckon it must be pushing 75% round here have or have access to a mewp.

The arb industry has change massively in the last few years. 10-15 years ago most arb firms had a rotten transit two plywood boards tied to the ladder rack as greedy boards and if really lucky a chipper. Now most have a mewp and some kind of mechanical handling. Be it a digger, skid steer, tractor and timber trailer or lorry and hiab. All the vans are custom built ally body's with toolboxes. It is definitely changing far far quicker than construction is currently.

 

[JD450A]

I really can't see them remaining. If you actually take a step back and look at the job from a hse perspective how can you possibly dangle a person from a tree that you have absolutely no way of knowing the structural integrity of. Yes climbers know when it's safe and when not but there is no way of quantifying this without cutting into the tree to begin with.
And if the tree is in a park woodland field and so on their is now an army of materials handlers equiped to deal with them. If in am urban environment then there are more hiab mounted setups coming into service everyday, that will reach clean over the top of a house and dismantle a tree in the back garden. As @GazCro said the owners and manufacturers will slowly bully the industry around to grapple saws and mewps being the only option. Especially for commercial work. No business will take the risk of employing an arb contractor climbing trees as if something goes wrong they don't want to be blamed for lack of due diligence. They will stay longer in domestic setups but even then the amount of arb firms with track mewps now is staggering. I reckon it must be pushing 75% round here have or have access to a mewp.

The arb industry has change massively in the last few years. 10-15 years ago most arb firms had a rotten transit two plywood boards tied to the ladder rack as greedy boards and if really lucky a chipper. Now most have a mewp and some kind of mechanical handling. Be it a digger, skid steer, tractor and timber trailer or lorry and hiab. All the vans are custom built ally body's with toolboxes. It is definitely changing far far quicker than construction is currently.

Think about it, the majority of climbed trees are ones well above the safe size of a average grapple saw to cut. You also have the reality that biting and cutting is great until it goes wrong...... sooner or later someone will take a chunk too big for the machine and there will be a fatality.

There are major risk reduction benefits to using climbers too in certain jobs, and there are jobs like Pollarding that you would struggle to do properly with a machine.
Lets Face it, there are many massive MEWPS or even cranes and baskets in the UK, and steeplejacks still exist....... And they are present in some of the most risk averse industries going.

 

[GazCro]

Think about it, the majority of climbed trees are ones well above the safe size of a average grapple saw to cut. You also have the reality that biting and cutting is great until it goes wrong...... sooner or later someone will take a chunk too big for the machine and there will be a fatality.

There are major risk reduction benefits to using climbers too in certain jobs, and there are jobs like Pollarding that you would struggle to do properly with a machine.
Lets Face it, there are many massive MEWPS or even cranes and baskets in the UK, and steeplejacks still exist....... And they are present in some of the most risk averse industries going.

Definitely at some point someone is gonna get greedy with a hiab and grapple saw/handler and there'll be a bigger accident than a climber in a tree. Then what they gonna do?

 

[JD450A]

Definitely at some point someone is gonna get greedy with a hiab and grapple saw/handler and there'll be a bigger accident than a climber in a tree. Then what they gonna do?

The reality is there is bugger all that you can do.... once it's grab'd and cut your naffed..... would'nt surprise me if one goes over backwards soon when someone takes something too heavy, panics, drops and then the force knocks the machine on it's arse.

Was speaking to a Pal a few weeks back about exactly this thing, and removing trees with cranes.... His view to be blunt was that machine mounted saws are cost effective and safer for dieback as the timber is brittle and trees like russian roulette.... But he can see sooner or later a tree snapping and falling onto property as a best case, and likewise he can see complacency causing a serious accident with too bigger lumps being cut.....
Same man is not a lover of MEWP's and told me a story of one that toppled over when a limb went the wrong way, His view is that as a climber your in full instant control and above any risk of falling debris.

 

[GazCro]

The reality is there is bugger all that you can do.... once it's grab'd and cut your naffed..... would'nt surprise me if one goes over backwards soon when someone takes something too heavy, panics, drops and then the force knocks the machine on it's arse.

Was speaking to a Pal a few weeks back about exactly this thing, and removing trees with cranes.... His view to be blunt was that machine mounted saws are cost effective and safer for dieback as the timber is brittle and trees like russian roulette.... But he can see sooner or later a tree snapping and falling onto property as a best case, and likewise he can see complacency causing a serious accident with too bigger lumps being cut.....
Same man is not a lover of MEWP's and told me a story of one that toppled over when a limb went the wrong way, His view is that as a climber your in full instant control and above any risk of falling debris.

Ultimately you only learn the limits when it goes wrong. Experience passed down comes from someone's f up at some point in the past. Regardless of lift capacity of hiabs shock loads are a guess and that's where i see the f up coming from.

 

[Smiffy]

Think about it, the majority of climbed trees are ones well above the safe size of a average grapple saw to cut. You also have the reality that biting and cutting is great until it goes wrong...... sooner or later someone will take a chunk too big for the machine and there will be a fatality.

There are major risk reduction benefits to using climbers too in certain jobs, and there are jobs like Pollarding that you would struggle to do properly with a machine.
Lets Face it, there are many massive MEWPS or even cranes and baskets in the UK, and steeplejacks still exist....... And they are present in some of the most risk averse industries going.

The ones to big for the grapple saws will be be accessed by mewps. And I'm not saying climbers will disappear. It will just have to be strongly justified. As with the steeplejack. It will become the reserve option. For when other routes are not possible. It's already like that in Germany. They will use every option before climbing. And sadly the opinions of climbers themselves will not matter as they won't making the rules. I highly doubt they will even be allowed to argue the case. It will be like so many other things where the change will be driven by people in suits. And yes at some point it might go wrong when someone takes to big a cut. But that is nice accident from the point of view hse. It's someone's fault. Blame can easily be placed on the operator a statement can be issued telling everyone to not over do it, all rapped up by lunchtime. If a climber falls out a tree due to a branch snapping that's a bad accident as how do you place a blame? It's much harder to form any kind of conclusion.

As said. Everything will eventually have to be mechanised where possible, not necessarily by grapple saw. Mewps will be perfectly legitimate to use. And the change will be driven by men in suits.

There are far to many big arb firms running this kit now for it to be ignored. It will start with commercial work and filter down.
It's not going to be instant but it will inevitably happen, purely on a box ticking excercise.

 

[GazCro]

The ones to big for the grapple saws will be be accessed by mewps. And I'm not saying climbers will disappear. It will just have to be strongly justified. As with the steeplejack. It will become the reserve option. For when other routes are not possible. It's already like that in Germany. They will use every option before climbing. And sadly the opinions of climbers themselves will not matter as they won't making the rules. I highly doubt they will even be allowed to argue the case. It will be like so many other things where the change will be driven by people in suits. And yes at some point it might go wrong when someone takes to big a cut. But that is nice accident from the point of view hse. It's someone's fault. Blame can easily be placed on the operator a statement can be issued telling everyone to not over do it, all rapped up by lunchtime. If a climber falls out a tree due to a branch snapping that's a bad accident as how do you place a blame? It's much harder to form any kind of conclusion.

As said. Everything will eventually have to be mechanised where possible, not necessarily by grapple saw. Mewps will be perfectly legitimate to use. And the change will be driven by men in suits.

There are far to many big arb firms running this kit now for it to be ignored. It will start with commercial work and filter down.
It's not going to be instant but it will inevitably happen, purely on a box ticking excercise.

Be a dangerous country to live in when it's too costly to get trees reduced, taken down etc.

 

[Lancs Lad]

The reality is there is bugger all that you can do.... once it's grab'd and cut your naffed..... would'nt surprise me if one goes over backwards soon when someone takes something too heavy, panics, drops and then the force knocks the machine on it's arse.

Was speaking to a Pal a few weeks back about exactly this thing, and removing trees with cranes.... His view to be blunt was that machine mounted saws are cost effective and safer for dieback as the timber is brittle and trees like russian roulette.... But he can see sooner or later a tree snapping and falling onto property as a best case, and likewise he can see complacency causing a serious accident with too bigger lumps being cut.....
Same man is not a lover of MEWP's and told me a story of one that toppled over when a limb went the wrong way, His view is that as a climber your in full instant control and above any risk of falling debris.

This...
Looking at this at APF...and my exact thoughts...once you hit the button your commited..you've got to be averagely savvy to leave the ground on spurs or ddrt and have something up top to understand the laws of physics...but levers seem to attract the "how hard can it be"

 

[Lancs Lad]

not a lover of MEWP's

I don't mind heights...rock or tree...but mewps at full stretch s**t me up a bit...don't know why but when they start swaying . Know a few lads that have had close calls...deffo have there place but easy to fk it up

 

[Smiffy]

Be a dangerous country to live in when it's too costly to get trees reduced, taken down etc.

For now atleast it would appear that this kit is relatively competitive.
Local to me there is al Wallace running 4 or so grapple saw trucks and a merlo. Alistair mgee with a grapple saw truck and blue sky tree care with one. There are 2 other merlo's with grapple saws. Two sennebogens as posted earlier in the thread. A good dozen tracked material handlers or 13t excavators running shears or saws. And dozens of tracked mewps. There where 5 in one filling station the other day, all different tree firms. Meanwhile the little one man bands are disappearing.

 

[GazCro]

For now atleast it would appear that this kit is relatively competitive.
Local to me there is al Wallace running 4 or so grapple saw trucks and a merlo. Alistair mgee with a grapple saw truck and blue sky tree care with one. There are 2 other merlo's with grapple saws. Two sennebogens as posted earlier in the thread. A good dozen tracked material handlers or 13t excavators running shears or saws. And dozens of tracked mewps. There where 5 in one filling station the other day, all different tree firms. Meanwhile the little one man bands are disappearing.

Relatively competitive but the little man is disappearing doesn't mean the little man can't compete on price but that he probably isn't getting a look in because "we've invested in all this kit to make it safer"

 

[pettsy]

View attachment 40372

I know the folk that own this. Have a yard full of kit, unimog/low loader/5t/13t etc. Ash dieback must be making tree firms a fortune!

 

[JD450A]

I know the folk that own this. Have a yard full of kit, unimog/low loader/5t/13t etc. Ash dieback must be making tree firms a fortune!

Cheap finance helps.....

The other thing to remember is you have the control factor, same as the use of ultra high reach excavators in demolition..... Once you reach a certain distance the time lag for the hydraulics becomes a factor, as does the visual factor and the risk of accidents increases due to it.

One lad with a grapple saw Hiab has got a drone to get the visibility. Great setup (he also carries climbing gear I believe and there are plenty of jobs he shows where he just uses the Hiab with a climber).

You'll find climbers hang around (get it ) and that the skills and regulations are far more stringent than we assume.

That's my bet anyway...... There will be some sad faces when the dieback party grinds to a halt.... Drivers who can work to eye and not GPS will be on higher rates in the future, and the driver CPC will be abolished

 

[doobin]

For now atleast it would appear that this kit is relatively competitive.
Local to me there is al Wallace running 4 or so grapple saw trucks and a merlo. Alistair mgee with a grapple saw truck and blue sky tree care with one. There are 2 other merlo's with grapple saws. Two sennebogens as posted earlier in the thread. A good dozen tracked material handlers or 13t excavators running shears or saws. And dozens of tracked mewps. There where 5 in one filling station the other day, all different tree firms. Meanwhile the little one man bands are disappearing.

What kind of firm runs that size kit and yet doesn't have their own bowser? Filling at a garage is such a waste of time, it's never just five minutes. It's twenty minutes out of your way, wait to squeeze in then a long queue to pay because they can't be arsed to open two tills. A penny a litre extra for derv delivered is nothing compared to the time savings of just filling up in the afternoon with a cup of cuffee whilst unloading, especially now the machines are on derv too.

Relatively competitive but the little man is disappearing doesn't mean the little man can't compete on price but that he probably isn't getting a look in because "we've invested in all this kit to make it safer"

This. Every two bob tree surgery outfit round here has one of those stupid 'roboflails'. Motorway embankment- fair enough. But the side of the South Downs isn't always that steep, and they go on about how it's such an important low nutrient habitat. Yet quite happy to just mulch everything and drop it with a roboflail every year.

 

[Monkeybusiness]

A few years ago I had an online conversation with an early-adopter mentioned previously on this thread and I asked about how they could possibly know what weight of branch/section of tree they were taking with their grapple saw, and what the SWL of the machine was etc.
The very bolshy response was essentially that their machine could pick up the world and there wasn’t a big enough tree in existence that would cause any issues…
Said person subsequently performed the most incredible about-face (probably through push-back on high-compliance sites a world away from their previous pond-digging experience) and became (rightly in fairness) the biggest shouter-from-the-rooftops about attachment weights/load charts/working envelopes etc.
Cranes/grapple saws/mewps etc are all incredible and necessary tools - they will never completely remove climbers from the job though. Cost has a relevance to the working-at-height hierarchy (it would technically always be possible to mechanically dismantle any tree, even if you had to demolish and then rebuild a house or create a new road to get close enough with a crane is an example of how the simplistic ‘Climbing is banned’ will never play out fully).
(It would already be banned in this risk averse country if that was practically possible).