Hydrogen - the fuel of the future?

[Nick...]

Sure I’ve read somewhere jcb will have hydrogen powered machines working this year.new Holland has had hydrogen powered tractors working for a few years now and I think you can buy one.Toyota are also having a hydrogen powered car for sale this year too.dunno where the fuel comes from though
nick…

 

[AusDave]

Can't see why you would want to use hydrogen to power diesel engines for any longer than the transition to fuel cell or battery technology. In many of the suggested ways of using diesel engines with renewable fuels there is still the complexity of modern emissions tech grafted onto diesel engines as well as the cost and complexity of common rail systems. For those companies with a vested interest in manufacturing diesel engines they will want to continue to utilise what they have invested so much money in. Not to mention the stranglehold many of those companies have in being the sole provider of service and repairs. Talking about John Deere here for example.

The amount of highly machined expensive moving parts in a modern diesel combined with all the electronics like sensors and engine management tech is a nightmare compared to the tiny amount of moving parts in a 3 phase electric motor. Already we have a company in Australia converting diesel Kenworth trucks into fully battery electric trucks pulling semi trailers or B-Double trailers https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2021/06/23/brisbane-to-melbourne-on-a-single-battery/
One of the benefits, apart from simplicity, is the much lower cost of electricity compared to diesel. Payback in some circumstances for converted trucks may be 1 to 2 years with increased profits from there. Australia has vast distances and we import nearly all our diesel, you can see the benefits for energy independence as we have phenomenal solar and wind resources which work great with battery storage.

Battery and hydrogen technologies are pretty closely linked to Moores law, which in the technology world implies almost exponential gains in performance and efficiency year on year. Sometimes this may not be apparent as it takes time to scale up manufacturing, which is what is happening now. Once new battery factories start producing at scale expect to see prices drop and the same is happening with hydrogen.

 

[Maxus]

If indeed the world depends on us eliminating fossil fuels and 'carbon emissions' then the answer is nuclear fusion. Once developed, a gram of material will be all that's needed to provide enough power for 1 person in a developed country for an entire year, whatever the weather...

Happy new year!

 

[Canal Navvy]

Brings back memories of working next door to JET in Culham 32 years ago, they reckoned they were close to cracking it then

 

[Canal Navvy]

Brings back memories of working next door to JET in Culham 32 years ago, they reckoned they were close to cracking it then

Though I suppose when you think about a very large part of our energy already comes from nuclear fusion ultimately

Prosperous new year to you all

 

[Maxus]

Brings back memories of working next door to JET in Culham 32 years ago, they reckoned they were close to cracking it then

Rome wasn't built in a day! But I take the point, it's always about 30 years in the future that it'll be ready. I did see there's been a recent advancement with superconducting magnets, I live in hope.

I just can't see the point in charging batteries or producing hydrogen with solar and wind. By the time you've built the infrastructure you've expended more energy that you've saved! Plus you've wasted manpower, time and resources in the process.

 

[Nick...]

I’d nearly bet my life that the big oil companies have bought up all the alternatives for fuel over the last 70 years and will roll them out when the oil has gone.
nick…

 

[JD450A]

I’d nearly bet my life that the big oil companies have bought up all the alternatives for fuel over the last 70 years and will roll them out when the oil has gone.
nick…

You could bet your life quite confidential.

 

[AusDave]

I just can't see the point in charging batteries or producing hydrogen with solar and wind. By the time you've built the infrastructure you've expended more energy that you've saved! Plus you've wasted manpower, time and resources in the process.

This is a myth. While the manufacture of solar panels, for example, requires substantial amounts of energy, studies have found that they offset the energy consumed in production within about two years of operation, depending on the module type. My panels are over 10 years old and still producing virtually the same output to my home with excess to the grid. Some of the panels sold here are guaranteed for 25 years with all manufacturers having a minimum of 10 years warranty.
Another study estimates that renewable energy sources typically emit about 50g or less of CO2 emissions per kWh over their lifetime, compared to about 1000 g CO2/kWh for coal and 475 g CO2/kWh for natural gas.
Also with electricity you can use most of the existing infrastructure and with good planning utilise future infrastructure builds more efficiently.

 

[craig]

I’d nearly bet my life that the big oil companies have bought up all the alternatives for fuel over the last 70 years and will roll them out when the oil has gone.
nick…

We where talking yesterday, saying we would be seeing synthetic fuel before long

 

[Arduainefs]

I’d nearly bet my life that the big oil companies have bought up all the alternatives for fuel over the last 70 years and will roll them out when the oil has gone.
nick…

Have to agree there…a neighbour of ours used to be an exploration manager for Shell, he said exactly that!
This was 15 odd years ago…..

 

[AusDave]

I’d nearly bet my life that the big oil companies have bought up all the alternatives for fuel over the last 70 years and will roll them out when the oil has gone.
nick…

Another myth. No evidence, just weird conspiracy theories to confuse and encourage a sense of powerlessness. Oil companies have been some of the biggest investors in the world in renewable power projects. The speed at which renewable technology progresses producing lower costs is the opposite of what fossil fuel companies face, which is higher costs in every aspect of their industry as well as greater and more expensive regulation.

It's no surprise that when a company dedicated to using new technology like Tesla, Rivian etc gets into production, their market value goes through the roof. They and other companies like them are proving what is possible and show that existing car companies are not acting fast enough to capture future market share. Although there are a lot of electric cars starting production from the likes of VW, Toyota, Ford, GM etc they are well behind electric only companies.
And don't forget China already produces half the electric cars made in the world today with over 8 million cars per annum expected by 2028 with Europe expected to produce 5.7 million cars by then.

 

[fred]

its a backwards step you have to burn electricity to make it so you have losses in that process.

Much more economical to just use the electric at point of use without the losses.

dead tech like the betamax.

 

[Nick...]

We where talking yesterday, saying we would be seeing synthetic fuel before long

We already have that.Aspen fuel that I use in 2 strokes is synthetic and keeps for around 5 years unlike conventional fuel that lasts about 5 weeks
nick…

 

[doobin]

its a backwards step you have to burn electricity to make it so you have losses in that process.

Much more economical to just use the electric at point of use without the losses.

dead tech like the betamax.

You're missing the point. It's about storing far more joules of energy than you could in a battery, and being able to use them all. It's very hard to extract every last bit of stored energy out of a battery- but pretty easy to empty a petrol or hydrogen tank. An electric car is wasting plenty of energy lugging all the batteries around. Losses are everywhere, it's not black and white.

It's also about being able to capture and store all the off-peak and excess production energy. Nuclear has to run at a constant baseload. High winds at night mean wind turbines are switched off. Being able to turn this into a road fuel for a car which doesn't have all the range drawbacks/battery environmental concerns of an electric vehicle makes perfect sense.

 

[Maxus]

I still can't help but think by the time you've developed wind and solar, all the time and energy spent we'd have been better off just cracking on with fusion reactors and planting trees. I also think that fossil fuels companies and governments will most likely have suppressed technologies for political, economic and military advantages.

 

[Maxus]

London ‘desecrating’ the countryside as giant Dorset solar farm sends its electricity to the capital

Green energy produced by 100,000 solar panels will not service local homes but instead power landmarks miles away, like the Gherkin

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Lancs Lad]

Another myth. No evidence, just weird conspiracy theories to confuse and encourage a sense of powerlessness. Oil companies have been some of the biggest investors in the world in renewable power projects. The speed at which renewable technology progresses producing lower costs is the opposite of what fossil fuel companies face, which is higher costs in every aspect of their industry as well as greater and more expensive regulation.

It's no surprise that when a company dedicated to using new technology like Tesla, Rivian etc gets into production, their market value goes through the roof. They and other companies like them are proving what is possible and show that existing car companies are not acting fast enough to capture future market share. Although there are a lot of electric cars starting production from the likes of VW, Toyota, Ford, GM etc they are well behind electric only companies.
And don't forget China already produces half the electric cars made in the world today with over 8 million cars per annum expected by 2028 with Europe expected to produce 5.7 million cars by then.

Not sure where you are located but here I'd say the big companies have responded pretty quickly to this current fad of the consumer who believes that by rushing out and buying and electric they will save the world....wonder how long it will take folk to realise us mere mortals don't actually have quite as much control of the planet as we think.

 

[AusDave]

I still can't help but think by the time you've developed wind and solar, all the time and energy spent we'd have been better off just cracking on with fusion reactors and planting trees. I also think that fossil fuels companies and governments will most likely have suppressed technologies for political, economic and military advantages.

Fusion reactors have been for many decades almost there but never eventuate. Billions have been spent on fusion technology which is mind numbingly challenging and complicated. It's only through the dedicated research of a small team of scientists at the Australian University of NSW that we have the current high efficiency and relatively low cost solar panels which are made around the world.
Just think if the money spent on fusion had been spent on renewable battery tech for example. We could be driving excavators with an all day life battery the size of a briefcase!

And just before you think of discounting that possibility just remember back to 2007 when the iPhone came out. An expensive novelty "smartphone" for the few that could find one and afford it, compared to the popular Nokia of the day. Nowadays most people carry a smartphone and need the capabilities it has and the current iPhone has more computing power than the majority of Intel based laptops on the market today. Sometimes technology has a seemingly slow burn and then suddenly it's everywhere and affordable. Let's just make sure technology is used for good purposes.

 

[6feetdown]

Inbev have just installed a £100 million plant in Magor South Wales at their brewery