Red diesel.....

[doobin]

wonder WTF they got that from ?????

Sounds like crossed wires/bad explanation.

 

[Justme]

Sounds like crossed wires/bad explanation.

Thats my take on it.

No point keeping red & charging the same to then claim it back.

Might as well get rid of red & claim it back.

 

[Canal Navvy]

I can't see the problem with keeping red as it will always be less attractive to thieves.
It has always been called a rebated fuel so all that would happen is that the option to claim the rebate would move to the user and would be reclaimed once a year on a small business tax return or through the VAT system for more established companies.

 

[GazCro]

Rebated diesel will have to stay with red dye in it otherwise its a free for all for those who can claim the rebate (if it were the way it was to be done) to run rebated fuel in everything

 

[Smiffy]

Rebated diesel will have to stay with red dye in it otherwise its a free for all for those who can claim the rebate (if it were the way it was to be done) to run rebated fuel in everything

It depends on how much records they require for the rebate. If the records are strict enough then whilst it will get fiddled it's still easy to catch them.
Especially if one tractor doing 300hrs a year is burning 60000 ltrs of rebated diesel a year which is what it's going to look like for some of the firms round here if they try and run bent

 

[GazCro]

It depends on how much records they require for the rebate. If the records are strict enough then whilst it will get fiddled it's still easy to catch them.
Especially if one tractor doing 300hrs a year is burning 60000 ltrs of rebated diesel a year which is what it's going to look like for some of the firms round here if they try and run bent

I'm thinking more folk running cars on it tbh and with no dye it wouldn't be traceable.

 

[V8Druid]

there has never been anything stopping anyone running red ..... as long as you register the fact with HMRC Newcastle and get all the 'exemption' paperwork ..
you then declare your usage (keeping meticulous records) and pay the due duty quarterly ...
it became evident when we had the fuel 'crisis' many years ago and trucks started coming in to us with the necessary paperwork ....
I rang Newcastle when the first one turned up and they explained it all to me and said fine, fill him with red - keep a record of his mileage, date, quantity, address, etc. and stick it on the invoice ... couple of small operators round here did it for years after .... keeps the duty in your bank, as it's paid in arrears

 

[Smiffy]

I'm thinking more folk running cars on it tbh and with no dye it wouldn't be traceable.

But either way the rebated fuel has to go somewhere and if it doesn't tally up with the hour meters on equipment and the jobs done. Then hmrc will happily send you a bill.
And knowing what they are like it will take absolutely nothing for that bill to turn up.
Probably end up being more hassle than it's worth to get the rebate. Especially as it can all be done through a computer at hmrc checking for the slightest irregularities, alot easier for them to fine people that way than actually having to go and look in a fuel tank

 

[V8Druid]

forgot to say .... it was never widely publicised as so open to abuse by 'unscrupulous' users

 

[GazCro]

But either way the rebated fuel has to go somewhere and if it doesn't tally up with the hour meters on equipment and the jobs done. Then hmrc will happily send you a bill.
And knowing what they are like it will take absolutely nothing for that bill to turn up.
Probably end up being more hassle than it's worth to get the rebate. Especially as it can all be done through a computer at hmrc checking for the slightest irregularities, alot easier for them to fine people that way than actually having to go and look in a fuel tank

As an example a lot of farms have both red and white tanks. A lot also have 3/4 private cars (2 or 3 kids, wifes car etc) and these are often diesel. How they gonna know which tank they are using if no dye and how the f**k do they know how much fuel a tractor uses. It'd be quite easy to cheat the system as long as not too greedy and if you repeat that across every farm in the country its a lotta fuel duty.

 

[Smiffy]

As an example a lot of farms have both red and white tanks. A lot also have 3/4 private cars (2 or 3 kids, wifes car etc) and these are often diesel. How they gonna know which tank they are using if no dye and how the f**k do they know how much fuel a tractor uses. It'd be quite easy to cheat the system as long as not too greedy and if you repeat that across every farm in the country its a lotta fuel duty.

We all know how unscrupulous hmrc are
I can easily imagine that it would not take a lot atall for them to charge rebate on all fuel that has been delivered to the farm I can imagine them being so strict that even legitimate farms fall foul and essentially bullying farms out of using a rebate.
They don't exactly play fair as it is. You can bet that whatever option is thought up the house will always win.

 

[GazCro]

We all know how unscrupulous hmrc are
I can easily imagine that it would not take a lot atall for them to charge rebate on all fuel that has been delivered to the farm I can imagine them being so strict that even legitimate farms fall foul and essentially bullying farms out of using a rebate.
They don't exactly play fair as it is. You can bet that whatever option is thought up the house will always win.

One big thing to consider is what's the deterrent. About 10 years or so back a building company from not far away from me running about 8 vans, 7.5 tonner and a mini digger or two got a van dipped. Found trace of red in tank went to yard following morning early doors found trace of red in every vehicle. It was blamed on young lad working on yard at weekend filling up out of wrong tank. Fined a few hundred quid from memory, certainly no back tax either. I personally think this is the beginning of the end of rebated fuel full stop and this is just the first step.

 

[Smiffy]

One big thing to consider is what's the deterrent. About 10 years or so back a building company from not far away from me running about 8 vans, 7.5 tonner and a mini digger or two got a van dipped. Found trace of red in tank went to yard following morning early doors found trace of red in every vehicle. It was blamed on young lad working on yard at weekend filling up out of wrong tank. Fined a few hundred quid from memory, certainly no back tax either. I personally think this is the beginning of the end of rebated fuel full stop and this is just the first step.

Sounds like they had a very good solicitor!!

That's what I mean, I think it will be a bullying tactic. Any problem with your quarterly rebate paperwork whatsoever even if it's just a problem the computer imagines then it doesn't get refunded. Getting stricter and stricter until they turn round and say x amount are not claiming a rebate or are trying to fudge the system, and it will all be taken away.

As I said they will win one way or another. It certainly won't be the public getting one over.

 

[V8Druid]

this is where the RDCO system will come into play..... every dealer in controlled oils has to keep meticulous records and make monthly returns .... HMRC will have all of those at their disposal to monitor any changes in consumption .... any supply made by a dealer in controlled oils over 100 ltrs has to have absolute traceability ... if the dealer doesn't comply/conform, they lose their registration - and their business, so they pay it serious attention ... used to take me 3-4 hours once a month to do the returns, including all the individual cash sales under 100 ltrs - they had to be BANG on - or else .. if farmer Giles suddenly starts buying 1000 litres a month more or whatever, they will come looking .... with their binoc.s initially ... Giles will not know he's under surveillance, 'til they knock on the door with a warrant

 

[Smiffy]

this is where the RDCO system will come into play..... every dealer in controlled oils has to keep meticulous records and make monthly returns .... HMRC will have all of those at their disposal to monitor any changes in consumption .... any supply made by a dealer in controlled oils over 100 ltrs has to have absolute traceability ... if the dealer doesn't comply/conform, they lose their registration - and their business, so they pay it serious attention ... used to take me 3-4 hours once a month to do the returns, including all the individual cash sales under 100 ltrs - they had to be BANG on - or else .. if farmer Giles suddenly starts buying 1000 litres a month more or whatever, they will come looking .... with their binoc.s initially ... Giles will not know he's under surveillance, 'til they knock on the door with a warrant

And it will be UpTo Giles to prove his innocence rather than hmrc to prove him guilty

 

[Monkeybusiness]

this is where the RDCO system will come into play..... every dealer in controlled oils has to keep meticulous records and make monthly returns .... HMRC will have all of those at their disposal to monitor any changes in consumption .... any supply made by a dealer in controlled oils over 100 ltrs has to have absolute traceability ... if the dealer doesn't comply/conform, they lose their registration - and their business, so they pay it serious attention ... used to take me 3-4 hours once a month to do the returns, including all the individual cash sales under 100 ltrs - they had to be BANG on - or else .. if farmer Giles suddenly starts buying 1000 litres a month more or whatever, they will come looking .... with their binoc.s initially ... Giles will not know he's under surveillance, 'til they knock on the door with a warrant

They’ll definitely keep it red as long as rebated diesel is on sale as @GazCro said - it’s immediate proof and can’t be explained away.

 

[V8Druid]

One big thing to consider is what's the deterrent. About 10 years or so back a building company from not far away from me running about 8 vans, 7.5 tonner and a mini digger or two got a van dipped. Found trace of red in tank went to yard following morning early doors found trace of red in every vehicle. It was blamed on young lad working on yard at weekend filling up out of wrong tank. Fined a few hundred quid from memory, certainly no back tax either. I personally think this is the beginning of the end of rebated fuel full stop and this is just the first step.

very lucky ...... they could've lost the entire biz .... RDCO records go back maybe 15 + years now ... can't recall when it came in exactly ... but they know who uses what, when and how much ...... I was absolutely meticulous with my record keeping - had to be, or suffer the consequences

 

[V8Druid]

And it will be UpTo Giles to prove his innocence rather than hmrc to prove him guilty

absolutely .... if he's suddenly started buying extra, he's going to have to have a bloody good explanation .... and their surveillance doesn't tally with what he tells them .............

 

[Monkeybusiness]

We were working in Anglesey a few years ago putting new accesses in through hedgerows/dry stone walls etc for a very big UK utility supplier - every box ticked etc etc.
8 tonne digger jobs, hauled around with tractor and dump trailer (subsequently used on every site moving stone/soil/shite).
Access was largely terrible down really narrow lanes, and plant wagons had no chance so we used the tractor for everything but ran it on white.
The first night we got to our hotel there was a couple of logo’d HMRC vehicles on the car park, which made my arse twitch a bit. They were there for a week or so. We never (knowingly) met or spoke to anyone who worked for them.
A day or so after seeing their vehicles for the first time I was filling the tractor up at a local Texaco and got talking to the owner (who clearly thought I was mental putting white in a tractor). I mentioned the HMRC vehicles and he said they were from weights and measures, and were on the island to check the accuracy of forecourt fuel pumps. He was gutted as his pumps had been under-reading!!!

 

[V8Druid]

We were working in Anglesey a few years ago putting new accesses in through hedgerows/dry stone walls etc for a very big UK utility supplier - every box ticked etc etc.
8 tonne digger jobs, hauled around with tractor and dump trailer (subsequently used on every site moving stone/soil/shite).
Access was largely terrible down really narrow lanes, and plant wagons had no chance so we used the tractor for everything but ran it on white.
The first night we got to our hotel there was a couple of logo’d HMRC vehicles on the car park, which made my arse twitch a bit. They were there for a week or so. We never (knowingly) met or spoke to anyone who worked for them.
A day or so after seeing their vehicles for the first time I was filling the tractor up at a local Texaco and got talking to the owner (who clearly thought I was mental putting white in a tractor). I mentioned the HMRC vehicles and he said they were from weights and measures, and were on the island to check the accuracy of forecourt fuel pumps. He was gutted as his pumps had been under-reading!!!

used to get 'em in once a month ... red, white and LPG