Buckets - as confusing as control systems?

[Gunners]

So whilst I'm waiting for a couple of projects to land that will give me the green light to join the tilty boys brigade I thought I'd do some research into buckets.... What a mistake! Take the grading buckets as an example.
Robert has been kind enough to quote me buckets with the GB02 profile which is where I think I need to be, until I read there's 3 profiles to choose from GB01-03 and then S30/150 or S30/180, all the same width but maybe deeper? To add to the confusion, I wanted a bucket 1m wide which can be done no problem, but it seems a minefield to make sure I don't get too greedy with my production head on and end up with a bucket that's too big and heavy to use comfortably when full.
Don't even get me started on the digging buckets - there's way too many options on those!
Help?

 

[Engcon UK]

A bit more explanation, Oliie

You are referring to the options for the EC02 tilty. We fit this on diggers from 1t to 2.5t (3t in some cases, depending on the digger). The GB-01 Grading bucket is for 1t machines and the GB-02 is for 2t.... well, you get the picture. Each has different characteristics which are matched to the size of the host machine.

As far as S30/150 and S30/180, both are available within the symmetrical hitch system, although we standardised on S30/180 as a stock item (for both tilties and buckets) to allow us to keep a greater range of kit here at Tewkesbury.

A word about width: With a conventional setup, it's quite normal to have 4' digging buckets on sub-3t machines. As soon as you put a tilty on it, the game changes. You will be digging from an offset position, digging at right angles, pulling rocks out of the ground with the corner of the bucket and so on. All of this puts a huge demand on the worm drive and wheel in the heart of the tilty and the torque can be quite high. For this reason we quote a 'maximum bucket width' on each size of tiltrotator (the EC02 is 900mm) so that the maximum torque capacity is not exceeded. Putting a wider bucket on may allow you to shift more muck, but use it with caution

 

[Gunners]

Ahh ok, so the S30/180 is like the dipper width/pin to pin sort of measurement. So on the example sheet above, whats the difference between the two GB02-S30 grading buckets at the bottom of the list and how does only 5L more in volume equate to 40kg in weight??

 

[Engcon UK]

S stands for 'Symmetrical' which defines the hitch geometry, 30 is for the pin diameter and 180 is the pin-to-pin centre. For the two GB-02 examples above the extra 5 litre capacity comes with a 100mm wider bucket and 20kg more weight. Typically the larger one goes with 2.5t+, and the smaller below 2.5t, although there is some crossover.

(on edit)

I should add that we can make pretty much any size that you want, any shape you want. These are stock sizes and are available on a fast turnaround (on the smaller diggers as well as tilties we carry top hitches and a selection of buckets in stock here in Tewkesbury). If you want something different, just ask.

HTH, Robert

 

[TiltyShaun]

Make your day here for a couple of hours Mr Gunners and see what an Engcon bucket on a small digger can do then the confusion will clear very quickly!,

 

[V8Druid]

S stands for 'Symmetrical' which defines the hitch geometry, 30 is for the pin diameter and 180 is the pin-to-pin centre. For the two GB-02 examples above the extra 5 litre capacity comes with a 100mm wider bucket and 20kg more weight. Typically the larger one goes with 2.5t+, and the smaller below 2.5t, although there is some crossover.

(on edit)

I should add that we can make pretty much any size that you want, any shape you want. These are stock sizes and are available on a fast turnaround (on the smaller diggers as well as tilties we carry top hitches and a selection of buckets in stock here in Tewkesbury). If you want something different, just ask.

HTH, Robert

Reckon Robert's having a blonde moment, or fielding too many phone calls .... 150/180 is the width between the cheeks .... pin ctr.s are 200mm and 230mm respectively on the S30,s

the PDF is the revised/updated version of the above chart, incorporating the new S40 size in the chart on page 4 and a few other alterations/additions
it also includes the required 'cut out' to clear the Aux couplers and max cheek thicknesses/pin protrusions .... which is well handy

 

[Quattromike]

S stands for 'Symmetrical' which defines the hitch geometry, 30 is for the pin diameter and 180 is the pin-to-pin centre. For the two GB-02 examples above the extra 5 litre capacity comes with a 100mm wider bucket and 20kg more weight. Typically the larger one goes with 2.5t+, and the smaller below 2.5t, although there is some crossover.

(on edit)

I should add that we can make pretty much any size that you want, any shape you want. These are stock sizes and are available on a fast turnaround (on the smaller diggers as well as tilties we carry top hitches and a selection of buckets in stock here in Tewkesbury). If you want something different, just ask.

HTH, Robert

There must be a typo on the chart, it states the same width for the two buckets.

 

[V8Druid]

There must be a typo on the chart, it states the same width for the two buckets.

probably a different shaped buckt Mike .... maybe a longer toe with flatter bottom as it's volume is different ... Robert says they don't recommend more than 900mm on the S30 hitch/tilty size ...... there're so many different styles of grader it's positively bewildering

 

[Komatsu]

Reckon Robert's having a blonde moment, or fielding too many phone calls ....

But not all S types are the same, the Hydrema S type is slightly different to the engcon type, where I could pick Lister’s Steelwrist buckets up, but not Robs Engcons ones for his Hydrema.

 

[V8Druid]

But not all S types are the same, the Hydrema S type is slightly different to the engcon type, where I could pick Lister’s Steelwrist buckets up, but not Robs Engcons ones for his Hydrema.

summat wrong there then Ollie ...... S type was supposed to be a set standard coupling .... that's what the PDF is all about ...... standardisation

"The purpose with the S-Standards is to:
1. Create a standard that is safe, user-friendly and harmonizes with international standards such as EN474 and the coming ISO13031.
2. Create a competitive and open industry standard that is not controlled by a single producer but instead controlled by of a recognized and independent industry association.
3. Create a uniform nomenclature for naming of Quick Couplers of different sizes within the standard
4. Create a uniform manufacturing standard for dimensions and tolerances adapted for an efficient production process. "

Thought Rob had an Engcon top hitch on the MX ?? certainly looks like one

 

[Grifferr]

So whilst I'm waiting for a couple of projects to land that will give me the green light to join the tilty boys brigade I thought I'd do some research into buckets.... What a mistake! Take the grading buckets as an example.
Robert has been kind enough to quote me buckets with the GB02 profile which is where I think I need to be, until I read there's 3 profiles to choose from GB01-03 and then S30/150 or S30/180, all the same width but maybe deeper? To add to the confusion, I wanted a bucket 1m wide which can be done no problem, but it seems a minefield to make sure I don't get too greedy with my production head on and end up with a bucket that's too big and heavy to use comfortably when full.
Don't even get me started on the digging buckets - there's way too many options on those!
Help?

Forget about s30/150 i don't think it is used much at all. It would be a good idea to start with a grading bucket and see how you get on before ordering the 1m bucket ?
You will know more about which profile to go for then. A lot depends on you machine when selecting buckets etc. Dipper length, zero swing and top hitch will need to be thought about. I have a GB02 the 80 L one and it seams to work out that a full bucket is 1/4 ton so 12 buckets to load a 3 ton dumper. I don't know where you are but give me a shout if you would like to come and give it a try. You can also just cut the hangers of your old buckets and weld top brackets on them.

 

[Komatsu]

summat wrong there then Ollie ...... S type was supposed to be a set standard coupling .... that's what the PDF is all about ...... standardisation

"The purpose with the S-Standards is to:
1. Create a standard that is safe, user-friendly and harmonizes with international standards such as EN474 and the coming ISO13031.
2. Create a competitive and open industry standard that is not controlled by a single producer but instead controlled by of a recognized and independent industry association.
3. Create a uniform nomenclature for naming of Quick Couplers of different sizes within the standard
4. Create a uniform manufacturing standard for dimensions and tolerances adapted for an efficient production process. "

Thought Rob had an Engcon top hitch on the MX ?? certainly looks like one

Nothing wrong there Gra, that’s the way Hydrema are and it’s not the first time I’ve come acrosss it, we’ll heard about it, but actually tried it with his buckets.
Yes we both have Engcon hitch’s, but Robs came fitted from Hydrema direct, where as everyone else’s comes from either JC or Robert. The reason this is, is that Engcon is, as far as I’m aware, the preferred supplier of tiltrotator, with it actually an option on the spec sheet from Hydrema.

 

[fred]

That’s weird, if I read it correctly. Hydrema supplied a factory fitted engcon that won’t pickup standard engcon buckets ?

So what hitch is it if not a standard one ?

 

[Engcon UK]

Just checking to see that you were paying attention

Not so much a blond moment Graham, almost a Homer Simpson one

Firstly, if I may correct my howlers. The S, or Symmetrical standard governs hitch dimensions and has been widely, but not exclusively adopted in the Scandi countries. The latest revision is shown below:

As has been correctly pointed out, I put pin-to-pin, when I should have put width. As with the S40, there are two variants and for simplicity Engcon have standardised on the wider in each case - S30/180 and S40/240.

Second howler: Ollie was talking about grading buckets, I thought I was talking about grading buckets; but actually reading the Digging bucket figures. The confusion has been compounded by the transposition of the weight and volume figures on that part of the list - the data on the website is correct, my internal document is wrong, or at least was - it's been corrected now. The correct figures should be:

Hopefully, this should make a lot more sense. Mea culpa, Mea culpa maxima

Finally, just to correct one other area of misunderstanding: The Hydrema hitch, although being of Scandinavian origin, is not actually an S type (sorry to correct you, Ollie). It's their own type and needs its own brackets and bucket tops. You can't pick an S-type bucket up with a Hydrema type hitch. Like the Verachtert hitch in Holland, it's quite common in Denmark, but doesn't seem to escape very often. Rob Taylor's is one of very few in this country.

Next time, I'll engage brain before switching on mouth...........

 

[V8Druid]

Nothing wrong there Gra, that’s the way Hydrema are and it’s not the first time I’ve come acrosss it, we’ll heard about it, but actually tried it with his buckets.
Yes we both have Engcon hitch’s, but Robs came fitted from Hydrema direct, where as everyone else’s comes from either JC or Robert. The reason this is, is that Engcon is, as far as I’m aware, the preferred supplier of tiltrotator, with it actually an option on the spec sheet from Hydrema.

of course there is something wrong Ol
..... Rob's is an industry standard - S type ENGCON and it picks up S type Engcon buckets ... Engcon hitch fitted brand new at Hydrema .... picks up all of Rob's buckets, supplied with the m/c ..... but you can't, with a hitch supplied by JCC ??

the Fact that Hydrema offer Engcon tiltrotator as a factory option should make no difference .... same S type hitch should fit all .... it's 'the new' 'industry standard', across the board. Engcon are hardly likely to make 'specials' for Hydrema?? ... What exactly is the issue that stops you picking up Rob's

can Rob pick up your buckets ??

That’s weird, if I read it correctly. Hydrema supplied a factory fitted engcon that won’t pickup standard engcon buckets ?

So what hitch is it if not a standard one ?

No Fred ... Ollies Engcon hitch, supplied by JCC, wont' pick up Rob's Engcon buckets supplied new with the MX ... go figure



ON EDIT
Seeing as Robert has posted, as I was writing and cleared the issue up we can all go have a coffee now ...... very surprised at Numbawun deviating from S type

 

[V8Druid]

thanks Robert @Engcon UK .... total confusio as our Italian mate Orzo'd say
what specifically is different about the Hydrema hitch to the S type ..... silly buggers

 

[Komatsu]

Finally, just to correct one other area of misunderstanding: The Hydrema hitch, although being of Scandinavian origin, is not actually an S type (sorry to correct you, Ollie). It's their own type and needs its own brackets and bucket tops. You can't pick an S-type bucket up with a Hydrema type hitch. Like the Verachtert hitch in Holland, it's quite common in Denmark, but doesn't seem to escape very often. Rob Taylor's is one of very few in this country.

No need to apologise Robert, you explained it how I wanted too, but was late when writing and just had a brief window to type while waiting for a wagon to get back, what people on here won’t actually get is, apart from Graham who seems to of turned into an expert on the matter, is that to actually look at the two head stocks, side by side they look identical but the difference is with the back pin, with, if I remember is set slightly further back.
It’s also the same with the levelizer that ground control bought, which causes a lot of issues because everything has to be speced to suit.

 

[Komatsu]

of course there is something wrong Ol
..... Rob's is an industry standard - S type ENGCON and it picks up S type Engcon buckets ... Engcon hitch fitted brand new at Hydrema .... picks up all of Rob's buckets, supplied with the m/c ..... but you can't, with a hitch supplied by JCC ??

the Fact that Hydrema offer Engcon tiltrotator as a factory option should make no difference .... same S type hitch should fit all .... it's 'the new' 'industry standard', across the board. Engcon are hardly likely to make 'specials' for Hydrema?? ... What exactly is the issue that stops you picking up Rob's

can Rob pick up your buckets ??


No Fred ... Ollies Engcon hitch, supplied by JCC, wont' pick up Rob's Engcon buckets supplied new with the MX ... go figure

Robs isn’t an idustry standard Gra, it is Hydremas take on it, my fault for how I worded it, but to look at them side by side they look identical.
It makes every difference that they offer it as an option, they want you (the customer) to be able to just get buckets and the like from them and them only, rather than every Tom dick and Harry who seems to be knocking the Swedish style out at the moment.
You would be very surprised what Engcon makes Gra, and if Hydrema want specials they’ll make them, simple. They're a Swedish firm, not a British one, that’s the thing you have to remember!... when we were taken round the factory we were actually taken into the “Specials” area, and it was very interesting to see what they were turning out, and it’s even more suprising how many different styles there are.

the difference if I remember is with the back pin, which left a bit of head stractching for me and the old man trying to figure out why/what had gone wrong. A phone call to JCC, and we were put in the picture, and also, just for the record, my hitch and tilty was supplied by Robert, but fitted by JCC.

 

[V8Druid]

Robs isn’t an idustry standard Gra, it is Hydremas take on it, my fault for how I worded it, but to look at them side by side they look identical.
It makes every difference that they offer it as an option, they want you (the customer) to be able to just get buckets and the like from them and them only, rather than every Tom dick and Harry who seems to be knocking the Swedish style out at the moment.
You would be very surprised what Engcon makes Gra, and if Hydrema want specials they’ll make them, simple. They're a Swedish firm, not a British one, that’s the thing you have to remember!... when we were taken round the factory we were actually taken into the “Specials” area, and it was very interesting to see what they were turning out, and it’s even more suprising how many different styles there are.

the difference if I remember is with the back pin, which left a bit of head stractching for me and the old man trying to figure out why/what had gone wrong. A phone call to JCC, and we were put in the picture, and also, just for the record, my hitch and tilty was supplied by Robert, but fitted by JCC.

that makes a lot of sense of the delay for Rob when he was waiting its arrival new .... at the time I couldn't understand the issue, but obviously Engcon had to specially manufacture a hitch under their tilty to match Hydrema's spec. .. hence the delay in arrival .... 'al ist klar ' now ........ still think they're silly buggers though, deviating from the S type and by such a small amount ....... and very surprised at Numbawun going with it too

 

[Shovelhands]

that makes a lot of sense of the delay for Rob when he was waiting its arrival new .... at the time I couldn't understand the issue, but obviously Engcon had to specially manufacture a hitch under their tilty to match Hydrema's spec. .. hence the delay in arrival .... 'al ist klar ' now ........ still think they're silly buggers though, deviating from the S type and by such a small amount ....... and very surprised at Numbawun going with it too

Reading between the lines, possibly Rob wasn’t aware of the difference....?