Backhoe

[Lancs Lad]

Personally I think the issue people forget is that it's a business not a hobby.... Whilst it's nice to spec what you want and have something you enjoy driving the reality is that it needs to keep a roof over your head and keep you fed.

There seems to be a few people getting caught out of late thinking super high spec machines are going to command a super high resale price..... From my perspective the ones that hold there value are the bargain basement s**t models..... Namely because when comparing two diggers a second hand buyer is unlikely to attribute serious money to extras like air con, rotation lines, etc...... And a tiltymajig comes into that.

Just my opinion, but I think there will be a few bears with sore heads soon enough.

That first paragraph
How many times I've stared at someone's new setup and thought htf does that pay? Could it just be This industry and it's dealers thrives on shiny new plant and not studying the numbers to intently until cash runs out?

I'd always dreamt of running a hydrapig style setup doing local jobs one day retirement kinda thing bit like a certain blue setup..but reality is Fred with his clapped out 8t and tractor and trailer will always be cheaper...

Saturday morning ramblings...

 

[Lancs Lad]

I've said it before and I'll say it again- I'm a lot happier with £80k of finance against multiple small machines than one Instagram special.

However- with interest rates so cheap, you'd have been mad to have saved up to purchase secondhand when you could have new for a couple of day's hire per year in interest charges. Secondhand on finance wasn't an option as the rates were so much higher- I'd have paid overall only 6k less for a ten year old Kubota 2.7t as I did for the new E27 on 0%.

Now, however, the rules of the game have changed. Finance on a new machine must be what, 7-8% flat rate these days? As opposed to 2-3% pre COVID. So the old way of doing things- owning secondhand gear and maintaining it, starts to stack up more. Possibly the owners of some of these 'high profile' machines for sale have variable finance agreements rather than fixed?

I've been told many a time 'don't finance, better to save up and owe nowt'. Frankly over all my time in business until a year ago, that advice has been bollocks. Finance has let me leapfrog far ahead of where I would be otherwise. But as illustrated above, times change. The old boys who gave me that advice were dinosaurs- still living in the early nineties in their heads. The trick is to be flexible and go with what works best with the economic circumstrances you find yourself in.

So now I'm stopping buying new on finance and instead, buying secondhand at the right money, before using my workshop skills to keep it going. I'm not going to be trading in my three year old diggers for new ones, particularly with the price increases. Add that to the interest rate rises and it means only one thing- new entrants to the market will need substantial pockets or to charge a lot more. So we are about to enter a good time to have bought and paid for kit alongside good workshop skills.

The other thing to consider is whether we are about to enter a prolonged recession and there will be some distressed sales. However, that's akin to gambling to me- may as well do bitcoin instead. I've always hedged my bets, and if a machine comes along at a price that you know will repay itself in fairly short order, it's silly to wait for a slightly cheaper one maybe a year down the line.

This time next year, @JD450A . This time next year!

Vehicles now at 8-9% 🫣

 

[Storrsy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again- I'm a lot happier with £80k of finance against multiple small machines than one Instagram special.

However- with interest rates so cheap, you'd have been mad to have saved up to purchase secondhand when you could have new for a couple of day's hire per year in interest charges. Secondhand on finance wasn't an option as the rates were so much higher- I'd have paid overall only 6k less for a ten year old Kubota 2.7t as I did for the new E27 on 0%.

Now, however, the rules of the game have changed. Finance on a new machine must be what, 7-8% flat rate these days? As opposed to 2-3% pre COVID. So the old way of doing things- owning secondhand gear and maintaining it, starts to stack up more. Possibly the owners of some of these 'high profile' machines for sale have variable finance agreements rather than fixed?

I've been told many a time 'don't finance, better to save up and owe nowt'. Frankly over all my time in business until a year ago, that advice has been bollocks. Finance has let me leapfrog far ahead of where I would be otherwise. But as illustrated above, times change. The old boys who gave me that advice were dinosaurs- still living in the early nineties in their heads. The trick is to be flexible and go with what works best with the economic circumstrances you find yourself in.

So now I'm stopping buying new on finance and instead, buying secondhand at the right money, before using my workshop skills to keep it going. I'm not going to be trading in my three year old diggers for new ones, particularly with the price increases. Add that to the interest rate rises and it means only one thing- new entrants to the market will need substantial pockets or to charge a lot more. So we are about to enter a good time to have bought and paid for kit alongside good workshop skills.

The other thing to consider is whether we are about to enter a prolonged recession and there will be some distressed sales. However, that's akin to gambling to me- may as well do bitcoin instead. I've always hedged my bets, and if a machine comes along at a price that you know will repay itself in fairly short order, it's silly to wait for a slightly cheaper one maybe a year down the line.

This time next year, @JD450A . This time next year!

I tried to double like this, but it just cancelled the first like, like.

 

[JerryRtilt]

There are certainly some that I have seen highly specced high profile machines that I have seen for sale recently due to “change of direction”.
I wonder if that change is driven by @JD450A first point.
On the rare occasions I do a full months work on the 8tonne digger I do fell rather flush. But my set up owes me £50k not the £100k plus it would cost if I tried to buy it new. Yes residuals all help at the end but buying 2/3 year old low hours and looking after has done me well.
On the other boot when I ran gangs, buying new made sense to run it and shift it!! Guys on the shovel are happy to stare at a broken machine as they are still being paid. Downtime was it that sense far more costly when compared to me leaving the ignition on and needing to go home for the jump leads.

I'd love to put a tiltrotator on my 8t, having run one on the 3t for 4 years now i can certainly see the advantages, the main one for me being age related, any thing that reduces the need for handwork is a bonus. the 8t has only done 2500hrs in 6 years and i couldn't justify the investment. Another problem is i can only operate one machine at a time and finding someone with the ability to make good use of a tiltrotator is a challenge. As has been mentioned everyones business situation is different, I'm glad i invested when i did but can't see one going on the 8t at the moment.

 

[6feetdown]

Vehicles now at 8-9% 🫣

I did get offered 3.9 % on the wacker after saying there was no way I'd pay what they were after

 

[Storrsy]

There's no doubt that small machines are where the money are for comparatively little risk. Buy a new £30k 2.8t which will probably be worth £20k in 5 years time whilst charging £40 odd quid an hour Vs £100k investment in a 13 tonner which will probably lose at least half that over the next 5 years all whilst charging only an extra tenner an hour etc- it just doesn't stack up in my head. Figures are variable but you get the drift
So not sure what's wrong really- the rates just don't seem to be there for the big hi investment kit I don't think.

 

[doobin]

There's no doubt that small machines are where the money are for comparatively little risk. Buy a new £30k 2.8t which will probably be worth £20k in 5 years time whilst charging £40 odd quid an hour Vs £100k investment in a 13 tonner which will probably lose at least half that over the next 5 years all whilst charging only an extra tenner an hour etc- it just doesn't stack up in my head. Figures are variable but you get the drift
So not sure what's wrong really- the rates just don't seem to be there for the big hi investment kit I don't think.

I've always thought that. The backhoe with it's spec just stood out to me as something that I could actually justify at that money!

 

[Storrsy]

I've always thought that. The backhoe with it's spec just stood out to me as something that I could actually justify at that money!

Definitely, especially with your workshop skills

 

[Giles]

Anyone want to guess what I've been quoted for a tilty, top hitch, gripper and one bucket from Engcon for my 3cx? DC2 System with sensors for rotation to connect to Idig included.
Not reverse drive....
Ill give you a guess... I wont be getting one

Do you want Paul Marsden number so he can tell you about his failed rototilt adventure on a backhoe?

 

[Furniss]

I'd love to put a tiltrotator on my 8t, having run one on the 3t for 4 years now i can certainly see the advantages, the main one for me being age related, any thing that reduces the need for handwork is a bonus. the 8t has only done 2500hrs in 6 years and i couldn't justify the investment. Another problem is i can only operate one machine at a time and finding someone with the ability to make good use of a tiltrotator is a challenge. As has been mentioned everyones business situation is different, I'm glad i invested when i did but can't see one going on the 8t at the moment.

This is what's pushed me the 6t route...I can't put a tilty on the 8t and the 3t and invest in attachments for both so the idea is to try cover the 2 bases with the 6t and tilty time will tell.

 

[JerryRtilt]

There's no doubt that small machines are where the money are for comparatively little risk. Buy a new £30k 2.8t which will probably be worth £20k in 5 years time whilst charging £40 odd quid an hour Vs £100k investment in a 13 tonner which will probably lose at least half that over the next 5 years all whilst charging only an extra tenner an hour etc- it just doesn't stack up in my head. Figures are variable but you get the drift
So not sure what's wrong really- the rates just don't seem to be there for the big hi investment kit I don't think.

Unfortunately with the uk's love of self drive hire anyone who invests in hi spec kit is always going to face a uphill challenge, i believe things are changing slowly, its just going to take a long time and any downturn in the market will slow things even more, hence these hi profile machines coming on the market recently, probably covering the monthly payments when working constantly but as soon as a contract ends for whatever reason, they have to go as margins are to slim to have them parked up in the yard, which is exactly why i won't be spending 30+k on a tilty for my 8t at the moment.

 

[JerryRtilt]

This is what's pushed me the 6t route...I can't put a tilty on the 8t and the 3t and invest in attachments for both so the idea is to try cover the 2 bases with the 6t and tilty time will tell.

Makes perfect sense, interesting you mention attachments, to get the most out of the tilty attachments are a must i think, but at least you can build them up over time. think you'll want a grading beam soon

 

[Furniss]

Re grading beams, I set off to build one for the 8t when they were all the rage a few years ago and never finished it , i reckon if you cant tilt it then its a bit useless for most jobs at 2m wide or whatever, anyhow its round the back of my shed, bloody big heavy thing...dont think the 6t will like it!
Rake will be first on the list ..expect it to make getting an acceptable finish on drainage beds and generally tidying up a bit faster and easier, like a few others on here I reckon a rake is one of the most useful attachments and not just a dust collector as young Rory once said most attachments are ,and I agree.

 

[Giles]

I just can’t make the maths work for me, we aren’t 8 hour a day digging we are diggers with value added doing landscaping, building, civils etc how will a £70k 5 ton with a tilty make me more than my 4000 hour kx161-3a, yeah looks shinny and great on Insta but doesn’t earn me more money and is more at risk of theft be it all or just tilty. Did we see first tilty theft the other day that was widely shared off the wacker.

The argument about more productive I get but I’m pretty good on machines and just can’t see saving that much time for the stuff we do. Easier to just have 3 machines on job and jump between them .

Because we do a wide range of jobs I’ve probably got more invested in DEWALT tools, accessories, trailers, dumpers and ancillaries than I have in my machines

 

[Furniss]

I just can’t make maths for work for me, we aren’t 8 hour a day digging we are diggers with value added doing landscaping, building, civils etc how will a £70k 5 ton with a tilty make me more than my 4000 hour kx161-3a, yeah looks shinny and great on Insta but doesn’t earn me more money and is more at risk of theft be it all or just tilty. Did we see first tilty theft the other day that was widely shared off the wacker.

Because we do a wide range of jobs I’ve probably got more invested in DEWALT tools, accessories, trailers, dumpers and ancillaries than I have in my machines

Makes perfect sense ..everyone situation is different.

 

[JerryRtilt]

Makes perfect sense ..everyone situation is different.

Just a case of prioritising where to invest the money

 

[JerryRtilt]

Re grading beams, I set off to build one for the 8t when they were all the rage a few years ago and never finished it , i reckon if you cant tilt it then its a bit useless for most jobs at 2m wide or whatever, anyhow its round the back of my shed, bloody big heavy thing...dont think the 6t will like it!
Rake will be first on the list ..expect it to make getting an acceptable finish on drainage beds and generally tidying up a bit faster and easier, like a few others on here I reckon a rake is one of the most useful attachments and not just a dust collector as young Rory once said most attachments are ,and I agree.

A grading blade obviously becomes much more usable under a tiltly, would be easy to over spec. i think tempting to go to wide and heavy but like everything all depends on that its used for, much the same with rakes, what size gaps? Hardox is a must i think.

 

[JD450A]

Trenching buckets to suit the widths you need, digging bucket, rake, grader.

Sorted.

 

[Canal Navvy]

Trenching buckets to suit the widths you need, digging bucket, rake, grader.

Sorted.

Don't forget the ripper/landscape hook
(have to call mine a landscape hook as the geometry is all wrong........ good job too as it is probably my most profitable tool)

 

[JD450A]

Don't forget the ripper/landscape hook
(have to call mine a landscape hook as the geometry is all wrong........ good job too as it is probably my most profitable tool)

Tbh I've never used one on mine..... I have one gathering dust but am lucky that I tend to fell my own trees and thus leave enough tree to push it out.