Making single acting service double acting (DRUID! CETOPS!!!🤣)

[doobin]

Ok, so my new backhoe has a separate valve block thing located away from the main valve block. It has pressure feed from the pump or main valve block or something and a pressure pipe down to the boom activated by a button. The breaker return pipe on the boom then goes straight back to the tank.

I’ve got loads of room under there. Could I just replace this with a cetop manifold (using the existing return to tank and flow from pump) and then have a two way variable service instead? Or maybe even twin auxiliaries?

 

[Left hooker]

As long as what ever you divert return to tank from is free flowing back to tank if you still do require a breaker at some point

 

[V8Druid]

Ok, so my new backhoe has a separate valve block thing located away from the main valve block. It has pressure feed from the pump or main valve block or something and a pressure pipe down to the boom activated by a button. The breaker return pipe on the boom then goes straight back to the tank.

I’ve got loads of room under there. Could I just replace this with a cetop manifold (using the existing return to tank and flow from pump) and then have a two way variable service instead? Or maybe even twin auxiliaries?

can have as many services as you want, if you buy a big enough manifold and Cetops ..... you might want to go to Cetop 5s though as doubt you'd get the flows from 3s ......
or tee into the P & T, leave the existing valve in place for the breaker and create new services with Cetop 3s for your grab/whatever

 

[doobin]

can have as many services as you want, if you buy a big enough manifold and Cetops ..... you might want to go to Cetop 5s though as doubt you'd get the flows from 3s ......
or tee into the P & T, leave the existing valve in place for the breaker and create new services with Cetop 3s for your grab/whatever

See, in my head it's that simple. But struggling to find a simple explaination of which bits I need. Flowfit don't do proportional cetops.

I see RS do them though- doubtless they will also do the rocker switches etc!

Bosch Rexroth, R900561282 Directional Spool, DIN, Directional Spool 230V | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Cetop 3 is I think 50l/min- should be OK for grab, possible rotate, auger etc.

 

[doobin]

Sooooo.... my pump is apparently a dual gear pump, open center.

Dumb question. If I just tee in to the P and T lines that already exist, this suggests that oil flows continuously through the new Cetop manifold. How does the oil not just take the easy route back to the tank all the time, starving other services?

LIke I said, dumb question. Someone put me out of my misery, I want to understand this stuff. It can't be that hard.

 

[V8Druid]

See, in my head it's that simple. But struggling to find a simple explaination of which bits I need. Flowfit don't do proportional cetops.

I see RS do them though- doubtless they will also do the rocker switches etc!

Bosch Rexroth, R900561282 Directional Spool, DIN, Directional Spool 230V | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Cetop 3 is I think 50l/min- should be OK for grab, possible rotate, auger etc.

that's not proportional, it's directional, like Flowfit's at less than half the price. Props're a LOT dearer than that ... and then need electronic drivers to run them .... as I've said many times, when I was VA-r building the best quote i got for prop. Cetop 3s was circa 1200 quid each, plus driver packs
you need to talk to Aiden about prop.s ... he seems to have a source he keeps pretty close to his chest

Sooooo.... my pump is apparently a dual gear pump, open center.

Dumb question. If I just tee in to the P and T lines that already exist, this suggests that oil flows continuously through the new Cetop manifold. How does the oil not just take the easy route back to the tank all the time, starving other services?

LIke I said, dumb question. Someone put me out of my misery, I want to understand this stuff. It can't be that hard.

not dumb at all ... the Cetops could be open or closed ctrs ... as could your existing valve ... but almost certainly open. When operated the oil flow is diverted through its/their galleries to where ever/whatever is connected to the appropriate port. possibly one way to be sure would be to connect the P/T in line between you existing and whatever feeds it.
T does continually dump to tank, until a demand is made on the P line from a valve ... the oil is a continuous flow ... and the incoming pressure from the pump gets diverted to where-ever you choose and then returned to tank, via the chosen service's return line after it has 'worked' ... if it couldn't continually flow it would be like dead ending it and the engine/pump would stall ....... all that compressed oil HAS to go some where

 

[doobin]

that's not proportional, it's directional, like Flowfit's at less than half the price. Props're a LOT dearer than that ... and then need electronic drivers to run them .... as I've said many times, when I was VA-r building the best quote i got for prop. Cetop 3s was circa 1200 quid each, plus driver packs
you need to talk to Aiden about prop.s ... he seems to have a source he keeps pretty close to his chest

not dumb at all ... the Cetops could be open or closed ctrs ... as could your existing valve ... but almost certainly open. When operated the oil flow is diverted through its/their galleries to where ever/whatever is connected to the appropriate port. possibly one way to be sure would be to connect the P/T in line between you existing and whatever feeds it.
T does continually dump to tank, until a demand is made on the P line from a valve ... the oil is a continuous flow ... and the incoming pressure from the pump gets diverted to where-ever you choose and then returned to tank, via the chosen service's return line after it has 'worked' ... if it couldn't continually flow it would be like dead ending it and the engine/pump would stall ....... all that compressed oil HAS to go some where

That makes sense, thanks. So I presume the existing hammer spool (remote from the main valve block and with just two pipes- flow in and then pressure out to breaker line) must be closed? Otherwise the opil would all just go through here rather than main valve block?

I'mstarting to think original plan of a divertor on the existing proportional 4-in-1 might be a lot easier!

 

[V8Druid]

That makes sense, thanks. So I presume the existing hammer spool (remote from the main valve block and with just two pipes- flow in and then pressure out to breaker line) must be closed? Otherwise the opil would all just go through here rather than main valve block?

I'mstarting to think original plan of a divertor on the existing proportional 4-in-1 might be a lot easier!

sounds a reasonable option TBH ... unlikely to be using the 4 in 1 and the back end together, with a grab on, very often plenty of room under the floor to bang in a 6 x 2 diverter and run some rubber up the same routes as the rest of the back end's plumbing to the QH
think I'd go for a toggle or similar to maintain the selected option - either front end or diverted

 

[doobin]

sounds a reasonable option TBH ... unlikely to be using the 4 in 1 and the back end together, with a grab on, very often plenty of room under the floor to bang in a 6 x 2 diverter and run some rubber up the same routes as the rest of the back end's plumbing to the QH
think I'd go for a toggle or similar to maintain the selected option - either front end or diverted

Thats what I was thinking, and a toggle to select which rocker switch does the control also.

 

[V8Druid]

Thats what I was thinking, and a toggle to select which rocker switch does the control also.

that will be down to the existing BHL control wiring .. whatever currently controls the 4 in 1 will also control the diverted service

 

[doobin]

that will be down to the existing BHL control wiring .. whatever currently controls the 4 in 1 will also control the diverted service

Yes, but I will want to wire another rocker switch in for the rear joysticks. So this will need a switch to choose between that and the exstign one.

 

[V8Druid]

Yes, but I will want to wire another rocker switch in for the rear joysticks. So this will need a switch to choose between that and the exstign one.

with you ..... front end has its own joystick then, so'll probably need a 3 pole x 2 way to switch from front to rear rocker?/roller?

presume the existing hammer spool (remote from the main valve block and with just two pipes- flow in and then pressure out to breaker line) must be closed?

looks like it's just a simple open/close valve, with a P feed

 

[CPS]

Ok from what I have read, the hammer line is operated via pump feed valve with a solenoid to close the feed, open it feeds down the hammer line and returns via a free return! If you use this it is likely you will steal the oil from the back end meaning it won't do feck all when the hammer is activated.

 

[V8Druid]

Ok from what I have read, the hammer line is operated via pump feed valve with a solenoid to close the feed, open it feeds down the hammer line and returns via a free return! If you use this it is likely you will steal the oil from the back end meaning it won't do feck all when the hammer is activated.

looks that way -- makes a lot of sense ... Doob's now changed tack to use his Prop front end clam service on a 6x2 and feed some rubber down the boom/dipper/extra

 

[V8Druid]

Yes, but I will want to wire another rocker switch in for the rear joysticks. So this will need a switch to choose between that and the exstign one.

are they rocker 'switches' or prop. controllers / rollers? ... straight switch'd be on/off ..... may have to buy an OE item Doob .. and a change over toggle may cause all sorts of interference/cross talk as the signal'll likely be low voltage

 

[Mick-the-fitter]

can have as many services as you want, if you buy a big enough manifold and Cetops ..... you might want to go to Cetop 5s though as doubt you'd get the flows from 3s ......
or tee into the P & T, leave the existing valve in place for the breaker and create new services with Cetop 3s for your grab/whatever

Agreed leave it as it is, put in a separate dual direction service

 

[CPS]

looks that way -- makes a lot of sense ... Doob's now changed tack to use his Prop front end clam service on a 6x2 and feed some rubber down the boom/dipper/extra

It's the way I'd go... easy enough depending how it's operated

 

[Bri963]

Sooooo.... my pump is apparently a dual gear pump, open center.

Dumb question. If I just tee in to the P and T lines that already exist, this suggests that oil flows continuously through the new Cetop manifold. How does the oil not just take the easy route back to the tank all the time, starving other services?

LIke I said, dumb question. Someone put me out of my misery, I want to understand this stuff. It can't be that hard.

Not dumb at all. When your valves are neutral, all the oil will return to tank. If your CETOP is in P it’ll be open to (eventually) T until you actuate the valve, then it’ll draw off what you demand and return the rest, until the valve is diverting full flow to your service. Rather than run a tee to your CETOP it needs to be Plumbed in-line to P. You will reduce flow to other services but that’s the price. Think yourself lucky it isn’t a K008, I think I generate more pressure and flow when I’m on the bog.

 

[Mick-the-fitter]

Not dumb at all. When your valves are neutral, all the oil will return to tank. If your CETOP is in P it’ll be open to (eventually) T until you actuate the valve, then it’ll draw off what you demand and return the rest, until the valve is diverting full flow to your service. Rather than run a tee to your CETOP it needs to be Plumbed in-line to P. You will reduce flow to other services but that’s the price. Think yourself lucky it isn’t a K008, I think I generate more pressure and flow when I’m on the bog.

Agreed if you T in the Ctop when you operate it the oil will just take the T route through the Aux valve back to tank! The only possible way that would work would be if you dead ended the Aux, and used the Ctop at the same time, then it would depend which relief valve is set the lowest!

 

[V8Druid]

Agreed leave it as it is, put in a separate dual direction service

thing is Mick .. Doob wants proportional