Powerfab - Weekend Warrior

[Powerfab]

A little bit of work for a Saturday afternoon. Pulling out base for retaining kerbs with 9" bucket, all through old fill crap.
Old girl can still put in an honest few hours when needed.

Base concreted in before the daylight gone for the evening.

 

[Peter]

hello Powerfab,
I also have such a Job Pel eb 16.4 which usually does a good job. But yesterday, I had an electrical problem that prevents the engine from starting. For some years I had to occasionally hit the starter with a piece of metal, but this time it's probably something else or the starter has definitely failed or two failures that combine. Anyway I have to find. Would not you have an wiring diagram of this machine by chance?

 

[doobin]

hello Powerfab,
I also have such a Job Pel eb 16.4 which usually does a good job. But yesterday, I had an electrical problem that prevents the engine from starting. For some years I had to occasionally hit the starter with a piece of metal, but this time it's probably something else or the starter has definitely failed or two failures that combine. Anyway I have to find. Would not you have an wiring diagram of this machine by chance?

You don't need a wiring diagram, it won't help in the slightest. The starter circuit on a machine like that will be incredibly basic. Get hold of a multimeter and post again when you're ready- I'll talk you through it.

 

[hiluxman]

Is it a perkins 3cyl engine?

 

[Peter]

Is it a perkins 3cyl engine?

Yes it has 3 cyl but it is a Mitsubishi

 

[Peter]

You don't need a wiring diagram, it won't help in the slightest. The starter circuit on a machine like that will be incredibly basic. Get hold of a multimeter and post again when you're ready- I'll talk you through it.

I am ready. Would be fantastic if it works.
Some times when I switch on i dont have the full tension on the control lights of the machine (switch failure ?). I opened all the connectors and tried to clean them, controled the power relay (OK) . What does this device do ?

 

[doobin]

That's the glow plug relay if I remember my Mitisi engine right.

First, connect the earth of the multimeter direct to the battery earth. Remove the spade terminal (most likely, small wire) from the starter. As you turn the key, the multimeter should show around 12v as the key switch contacts the start position. You may need long multimeter leads, and a crocodile clip on the ends. Or a mate to help.

Another way round (mind your fingers) is to run a wire straight from the battery positive, and touch this to the spade terminal on the motor. The motor should turn. Basically the little signal wire you are testing activates a relay built in to the starter which alllows the fat cable direct form the battery to feed power and turn the motor. Most likely yours is broken somewhere.

If this is the problem, you need to find the break/dodgy contact. On my forklift I just ran a complete new wire, it was quicker.

 

[Peter]

I found in between that the above is a quick glow controller. But this flat box is more difficult to find out what it is because it has no inscription other what could be a Mistsubishi sign .

 

[Peter]

That's the glow plug relay if I remember my Mitisi engine right.

First, connect the earth of the multimeter direct to the battery earth. Remove the spade terminal (most likely, small wire) from the starter. As you turn the key, the multimeter should show around 12v as the key switch contacts the start position. You may need long multimeter leads, and a crocodile clip on the ends. Or a mate to help.

Another way round (mind your fingers) is to run a wire straight from the battery positive, and touch this to the spade terminal on the motor. The motor should turn. Basically the little signal wire you are testing activates a relay built in to the starter which alllows the fat cable direct form the battery to feed power and turn the motor. Most likely yours is broken somewhere.

If this is the problem, you need to find the break/dodgy contact. On my forklift I just ran a complete new wire, it was quicker.

It is not very easy to me since english is not my natif language. The starter is very inaccessible. Do i have to mesure the voltage on the small removed wire in order to check if the ignition voltage arrives to the starter ? I think it is the case because when turning the key the battery voltage drops significantly.
For the other possibillity with the new directly connected wire , is it to replace the small wire commanding the starter ?

 

[doobin]

It is not very easy to me since english is not my natif language. The starter is very inaccessible. Do i have to mesure the voltage on the small removed wire in order to check if the ignition voltage arrives to the starter ? I think it is the case because when turning the key the battery voltage drops significantly.
For the other possibillity with the new directly connected wire , is it to replace the small wire commanding the starter ?

The voltage dropping when turning the key will be because of glow plugs.
You need to measure the voltage on the small wire to see that when you turn the key all the way, a signal is sent.

 

[Peter]

That's the glow plug relay if I remember my Mitisi engine right.

First, connect the earth of the multimeter direct to the battery earth. Remove the spade terminal (most likely, small wire) from the starter. As you turn the key, the multimeter should show around 12v as the key switch contacts the start position. You may need long multimeter leads, and a crocodile clip on the ends. Or a mate to help.

Another way round (mind your fingers) is to run a wire straight from the battery positive, and touch this to the spade terminal on the motor. The motor should turn. Basically the little signal wire you are testing activates a relay built in to the starter which alllows the fat cable direct form the battery to feed power and turn the motor. Most likely yours is broken somewhere.

If this is the problem, you need to find the break/dodgy contact. On my forklift I just ran a complete new wire, it was quicker.

I did the check up's : the voltage is full 12.4 V on the ignition wire and a direct wire to the starter didn't turn on the motor. So it probably is what i expected : the starter is failing. The methode by hitting it with a metal rod doesn't work anymore. But there must be another bad contact, in the starting switch or in the wires. Thank of your help i learned quickly that there is no other need in the starting circuit than the wires, the switch and the starter.

 

[doobin]

Excellent. Don't get had by expensive prices for the starter- they can be found on eBay for around £250 new.

Learn from my expensive mistake- a bad earth from the battery to the chassis will kill a new starter motor quickly, so grind and clean the earth from the battery to chassis and the earth from engine to chassis.

 

[Peter]

Excellent. Don't get had by expensive prices for the starter- they can be found on eBay for around £250 new.

Learn from my expensive mistake- a bad earth from the battery to the chassis will kill a new starter motor quickly, so grind and clean the earth from the battery to chassis and the earth from engine to chassis.

Thank you for your good advices. Is there no hope to repair the starter ?
I looks like being impossible to take the starter off ( brobably even worse to put the new one in) without taking off the motor

 

[doobin]

If you have a good guy locally it might be fixable. Mine wasn't.

I can't remember if I had to loosen the engine mounts to get mine off. You could try just removing the bolts and jacking the engine up, woudl that give enough room?

 

[Powerfab]

hello Powerfab,
I also have such a Job Pel eb 16.4 which usually does a good job. But yesterday, I had an electrical problem that prevents the engine from starting. For some years I had to occasionally hit the starter with a piece of metal, but this time it's probably something else or the starter has definitely failed or two failures that combine. Anyway I have to find. Would not you have an wiring diagram of this machine by chance?

Peter,

I have a wiring diagram which I can try and copy for you, but Doobin has already helped you diagnose the problem. I doubt the wiring diagram would be of any help to you at present.

You are correct that the starter motor is hard to access. There is little room around the Mitsubishi in the engine bay.
If I recall correctly there is an access plate on the rear bulkhead of the cab in the battery box below the seat. Its below that plate which all the electric relays are mounted and gives some restricted access to the rear of the engine. It might be enough to let you get at the starter to unbolt it. The engine can be unbolted from the mounts and dropped slightly with a suitable jack support, but be warned the rear engine mounts are a pig to get at. I'd think you'd have more luck getting access to the starter bolts from below and releasing it down and out.

 

[Powerfab]

If you have a good guy locally it might be fixable. Mine wasn't.

I can't remember if I had to loosen the engine mounts to get mine off. You could try just removing the bolts and jacking the engine up, woudl that give enough room?

I'd agree.

Peter, check that all the earth straps are in good condition and that you have electrical continuity.
Do any of the ancillary electrics work, heater fan, lights, horn etc?

 

[Peter]

Peter,

I have a wiring diagram which I can try and copy for you, but Doobin has already helped you diagnose the problem. I doubt the wiring diagram would be of any help to you at present.

You are correct that the starter motor is hard to access. There is little room around the Mitsubishi in the engine bay.
If I recall correctly there is an access plate on the rear bulkhead of the cab in the battery box below the seat. Its below that plate which all the electric relays are mounted and gives some restricted access to the rear of the engine. It might be enough to let you get at the starter to unbolt it. The engine can be unbolted from the mounts and dropped slightly with a suitable jack support, but be warned the rear engine mounts are a pig to get at. I'd think you'd have more luck getting access to the starter bolts from below and releasing it down and out.

Powerfab thank you. It turns out that I also have a bad contact somewhere in the electrical circuit and the wiring diagram will help me to find it much more easily. It's actually two breakdowns that combine. For the moment I have disassembled and tested the boot switch which seems to be without reproach.
To access the starter it is true that there is this small hatch under the seat. I tried to facilitate access by wanting to disassemble a hydraulic tube that passes in front. Unfortunately the nuts of the fitting of this tube are not allowed to loosen (for the moment) even with extension tubes on the keys. (I plan to heat with a blowtorch). I also tried to access the starter over the engine trying to disassemble the muffler first. But here too I can not loosen the bolts. I also plan to unbolt the cab with the engine hood and lift the whole with the crane of my telescopic forklift.

 

[Peter]

I'd agree.

Peter, check that all the earth straps are in good condition and that you have electrical continuity.
Do any of the ancillary electrics work, heater fan, lights, horn etc?

Yes, it's a good idea to check all the grounding i can find. The heater has not worked since I aquired the used machine 12 years ago, the lights are also broken and the horn I will check after reassembly of the starter switch. There is a 15 amp fuse to replace but I think it's for the lights.

 

[Powerfab]

Peter,

Here's copies of all the electrical diagrams I can find in the manual. I've even included an exploded view of the starter motor for you

I hope these are of some help.

 

[Peter]

Peter,

Here's copies of all the electrical diagrams I can find in the manual. I've even included an exploded view of the starter motor for you

I hope these are of some help.

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Thank you so much. This fantastic gift gives me the power to dominate the electrical problems of my machine. What is the buzzer for, I've never heard its sound ?