S
Stroppymonkey
Well-known member
Hang on…. You’re talking weight. When you buy Bulk LPG or Kero it’s in litres. I’m talking apples and you is taking pears!
S
Stroppymonkey
Well-known member
Yes those are valid points. Typically the running costs for LPG domestically have always been significantly higher than Kero. I daresay that will come again…. It’s a cleaner fuel and has higher infrastructure costs than Kero so should always be more expensive based on logistics
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
UK Autogas is nigh on pure Propane
Eu/continental Autogas is anything up to 25% blend of Prop/Butane ... you need to richen up your set up/vaporiser, for continental driving, unless you have a closed loop Lambda controlled system, which'll do it for you
Propane liquifies at 200psi ... average Autogas tank on vehicles are min. 4mm thick.
the 80% figure's for a blend .... pure Prop is as good as/nigh on, 1:1 and can be run at quite low CR,s too (8:1 upwards)
No such thing as off topic in here - it's Plant Talk -- anything goes
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
no .. read the table "Gigajoules per tonne" as a comparator ... both fuels can be measured in weight or volume and weight for weight LPG comes out top
J
Jimoz
Well-known member
Polish lad I was working with had a system fitted to his merc. It seems to be they're a bit more familiar with it on the continent. He had a few issues with the system which was fitted here, ironed out when he went over there the other month.UK gov. has, since 2002, tried hard to suppress/depress LPG sales here .....
in '99/2000, to be seen to be green, LPG was promoted hard ...
As said, I've run it since late '99 and at that time duties etc., were promised to be frozen for 5 years - they weren't ...
uptake of it as an alternate fuel was good from 2000 on, for a couple of years, 'til they moved all the goal posts and it started to climb in price and although it was for many years, half the cost of petrol - more sometimes - it took time to recover the conversion costs and a lot of folk no longer saw the advantages, particularly with the regularity that ppl change their vehicles and so it quietly died a death, particularly without the original gov. support/promotion. Users became scarcer as did outlets .....
in 2000/'01 I was selling 3 x 2000 litre tankfuls a week ... by '04 that was down to a tank a fortnight and it continued downhill.
LPG, specifically Autogas (road dutied LPG), is still less than half the cost of petrol and will give, you as near as damn it, the same return mileage-wise, litre for litre .. pound for pound, virtually double+ ....... they (HM Gov.) just DO NOT want ppl to use it.
LPG was 23p/ltr (duty paid) in 2000 ... by '04 it was over 43p/l ... near double .... bear in mind that it is a by-product of petroleum refining and the refiners either have to pay a burn off levy on it, or flog it cheap ... in '04/5 it was being sold to Portugal, (a big user) by the ship load and under a penny a litre, compared to what the home market was paying ...
today's fuel duties are ......
there are 1.98 ltrs of LPG in a kilo ... so the former is 3.66 more times duty heavy than LPG ..... someone, somewhere realised they were on a serious hiding to nothing, duty-wise and dropped it as an alternate, like a hot potato .. (kero BTW is 10.7p/litre) so cheaper duty-wise than LPG ..... but a lot dearer, currently.
- Petrol, diesel, biodiesel and bioethanol – 57.95p per litre
- Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) – 31.61p per kg
anyone noticed there is absolutely zero promotion of LPG as an alternate for any use, anywhere???????
It's still about half the price at pump isn't it?
What are you saying with the duty rates that it's only 15p/l on lpg so that's the reason govt doesn't promote it? Surely they could just increase the duty rate bit like introducing road tax for leccy cars?
S
Stroppymonkey
Well-known member
Yes…. But if you buy a litre of LPG then you buy LESS energy (about 7kw) than when you buy a litre of heating oil (around 10kw)
Volume is how we buy and store the 2 fuels in bulk so the fact that a ton of LPG has more calorific value than a ton of heating oil isn’t relevant surely?
Heating oil is traditional cheaper than LPG. The price gap widens and closes over time and something even crosses the line, but if you have 2 identical sized tanks outside your house then the one full of kerosene will keep your home hot for longer than the one full of LPG!….
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
there abouts Jim ..... back then they were less than a third of that and I assume they suddenly realised that there was a likelihood of ending up seriously short .. plus it was only ever given lip service anyway, as said 'to be seen to be green'
just found a more up to date gov. page showing LPG/Autogas has been reduced to 28.88p/KG ..... can not find a rate for LPG as heating/cooking fuel
... bit much if they're levying the same, ... as kero is currently 9.78/ltr for heatinginteresting quote from 2018:-
" LPG is the most widely available alternative fuel in the UK with over 1,400 refuelling sites, most of which are on petrol forecourts. Most petrol engines can be converted to LPG and there are currently around 27 million vehicles worldwide running on Autogas with over 10 million in Europe and more than 150,000 in the UK. "
UK extends duty rate benefit for alternative road fuels to 2032 - auto-gas.net
The UK Autumn Budget, delivered on October 30, announced that “the government will maintain the difference between alternative and main road fuel duty rates until 2032 to support the decarbonisation of the UK transport sector, subject to review in 2024.” Under this budget, duty paid on...
Uk had a mere 1.5% compared to the vehicles running LPG in Eu ... bet it's a hell of a lot less now .. ditto refuelling sites.
GazCro
Well-known member
Lpg as a fuel for cars was shafted by the manufacturers and govt pushing everyone down the route of diesel vehicles. Petrol got a bad name for efficiency and economy and lpg was overlooked.there abouts Jim ..... back then they were less than a third of that and I assume they suddenly realised that there was a likelihood of ending up seriously short .. plus it was only ever given lip service anyway, as said 'to be seen to be green'
just found a more up to date gov. page showing LPG/Autogas has been reduced to 28.88p/KG ..... can not find a rate for LPG as heating/cooking fuel
interesting quote from 2018:-
" LPG is the most widely available alternative fuel in the UK with over 1,400 refuelling sites, most of which are on petrol forecourts. Most petrol engines can be converted to LPG and there are currently around 27 million vehicles worldwide running on Autogas with over 10 million in Europe and more than 150,000 in the UK. "
UK extends duty rate benefit for alternative road fuels to 2032 - auto-gas.net
The UK Autumn Budget, delivered on October 30, announced that “the government will maintain the difference between alternative and main road fuel duty rates until 2032 to support the decarbonisation of the UK transport sector, subject to review in 2024.” Under this budget, duty paid on...auto-gas.net
Uk had a mere 1.5% compared to the vehicles running LPG in Eu ... bet it's a hell of a lot less now .. ditto refuelling sites.
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
I see where you're coming from .... but the specific gravities of all fuels vary and the only true comparator is by weight, which is why the DUKES uses it .... a tonne is a tonne, is a tonne - lead, feathers, kero or LPG
S
Stroppymonkey
Well-known member
I use autogas in my campervan. It’s hard work trying to find a retailer now
S
Stroppymonkey
Well-known member
I’m sure our science teacher had an argument about the class about what’s heavier - feathers or stone. This feels a bit like that conversation!
I’d argue that volume is a more accurate comparator but it’s Sunday and too late for arguing. We will have to agree to disagree.
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
spot on ..... was only ever given token lip service, when in actuality it's a bloody sight greener than any leccy chariot ... only thing better is hydrogen in an ICE
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
as an aside gaz .... the only european manufacturer still offering an OE/factory fit LPG set up is Dacia, on their Dusters ...... which you can now no longer buy in the uk, new
V8Druid
do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
yes ... and you know why
... got 3 within 15 miles of me ATM - perhaps 4, not been to the one in a while ..... bloke in Aber's not there anymore do you run it on autogas or just have a tank for cooking/heating ?
B
bobthebuilder
Well-known member
been on a fixed contract for lpg been at 36ppl for 2 years ,signed another with flogas for 2 years in april at 4 2ppl ,kero has been over a quid for a year or so ,i know whats been cheaper for me in the last 4 years
S
Stroppymonkey
Well-known member
It’s a diesel transit-gas just for cooking and heatingyes ... and you know why
do you run it on autogas or just have a tank for cooking/heating ?
Vinpetrol
Well-known member
I wish you wouldn’t , I need an answer to my issue ! Which fuel is most cost effective when your heating a house from a buried garden tank ? Also roughly what percentage is one better than the other ? My options are I stick with LPG tank and 16 year old boiler or I renew boiler for a new kero boiler and locate the kero tank in a better location and reclaim the bit of garden the buried LPG tank is in . If the running costs are that close it would be likely not worth removing the LPG but if there is a significant saving using kero then it may be worth considering switching
GazCro
Well-known member
It's impossible to tell you a definite answer but if there's no reason to change the existing boiler then are you gonna be in the house long enough to get your money back from the cost of installing an oil boiler and tank if there is a saving?
Vinpetrol
Well-known member
That’s really helpful , what’s the minimum contract length they offer ? Do they charge standing charge for the tank or do you own it ?
I suppose though your price per litre comparison only is relevant if they both burn similarly. Or if we knew what the percentage difference was we could then make a more accurate comparison.
Vinpetrol
Well-known member
I’m keeping the house as a rental once I’ve built mine so it is relevant and I’m familiar with kero so i understand how that works . Locally LPG has not been as widely accepted and I’ve also seen a lot of LPG tanks removed hence my scepticism.
Surely there is some way to work out how much more LPG you will burn in comparison to Kero to deliver the same heat in percentage terms . Then that can be multiplied by the price per litre to get a realistic comparison. If it’s close then no point in switching to Kero until boiler plays up but if as I initially suspected that kero works out quite a bit cheaper then It might be better to switch now
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