WTF is going on here??

[V8Druid]

https://www.theconstructionindex.co...s-card-scheme-and-outsources-hundreds-of-jobs

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/summit-meetings-to-address-card-scheme-questions

"The Construction Plant Competence Scheme (CPCS) is being sold to NOCN Group, an awarding organisation and registered charity. .... The restructuring of operations is part of CITB’s Vision 2020 programme to get out of training delivery and become a facilitator. ........ "

" Plant operator licences are not a legal requirement, unlike a driving licence, but it is necessary to demonstrate competency. Various industry schemes have cards that validate the competencies of the holder, with CPCS backed by the major contractors as an industry-owned scheme. "

so HTF can they sell this off, as it's "an industry-owned scheme" and match funded with tax payers money by HM Gov. ???? HTF can this outfit also be a "registered charity" FFS it's a business????

Registered charity status really boils my p*ss ... so many loopholes/dodges/etc. and special privileges ... with the CEs usually on a £quarter mill salary. Gravy trains most of 'em

WTF is going on in this bloody country ????

I'll bet there's a few in the Construction industry regretting giving these to**ers another three year mandate

 

[Grahams]

Does seem pretty dodgy selling something that is supposidly owned by the industry. Do the "industry" and the taxpayer get the sale proceeds.
Educational charities are big business. I'm surprised it wasn't set up as one in the first place.
Graham

 

[V8Druid]

Does seem pretty dodgy selling something that is supposidly owned by the industry. Do the "industry" and the taxpayer get the sale proceeds.
Educational charities are big business. I'm surprised it wasn't set up as one in the first place.
Graham

you can bet your left nut they won't Gra

HTF can they register a business as a charity FFS

 

[TiltyShaun]

Which is why I avoid the national scam completely!

 

[fred]

It’s kind of like your guilty until you prove your innocent. HSE can visit site unannounced and ask you to demonstrate how you are proficient with whatever plant your sat in.

What is the correct answer I wonder if you have no ‘official’ tickets? I have none and have used plant pretty much since before I could legally drive. Not sure that would mean anything to HSE though.

Difficult one

 

[Shovelhands]

It’s kind of like your guilty until you prove your innocent. HSE can visit site unannounced and ask you to demonstrate how you are proficient with whatever plant your sat in.

What is the correct answer I wonder if you have no ‘official’ tickets? I have none and have used plant pretty much since before I could legally drive. Not sure that would mean anything to HSE though.

Difficult one

As there’s no law requiring you to have a ticket, then what can they do?

 

[V8Druid]

It’s kind of like your guilty until you prove your innocent. HSE can visit site unannounced and ask you to demonstrate how you are proficient with whatever plant your sat in.

What is the correct answer I wonder if you have no ‘official’ tickets? I have none and have used plant pretty much since before I could legally drive. Not sure that would mean anything to HSE though.

Difficult one

"Plant operator licences are not a legal requirement, " (see first post Fred)

Have had the same argument with factory inspector's apprentice years ago, in my workshop .... " my FLTs, my cost, my blokes, my site, my decision as to their competence ... now sod off out to your car and get all your PPE on, including toe caps, etc., or leave my site now " ..... they left after the 'mentor' admitted I was right, to the apprentice

 

[Mintsauce]

Grandfather rights must come into the equation at some point.

It doesn't necessarily have to be for plant/machinery it's just as important to know what you're doing with an electric kettle at tea break.

 

[V8Druid]

Grandfather rights must come into the equation at some point.

It doesn't necessarily have to be for plant/machinery it's just as important to know what you're doing with an electric kettle at tea break.

they're usually only applicable for limited periods after an introduction of, or major change to, the rules, with a widespread effect and generally to a change in statutes.
as all this card crap isn't actually a statute, any GF rights'd probably be discretionary anyway.
You only need 'em if you want to operate on a 'cartel'' site ....... which they are .... essentially, a closed shop situation.

as for the kettle .... no amount of plastic cards is going to stop you scalding yourself, if you've no idea HTF to use it safely in the first place

 

[V8Druid]

Which is why I avoid the national scam completely!

and avoid the sites in the 'cartel'' scam, who insist on you being in their money making 'club' ..... in order to wait 90-120 days to be paid for your pleasure

 

[sandy2210]

It’s also a pass the buck thing if I inspect a digger or whatever and find a defect and still use it and some one gets hurt because of the defect then the buck stops with me. If I don’t have a ticket and report it to my boss and still drive it and there is an accident because of it the boss will be responsible

 

[V8Druid]

It’s also a pass the buck thing if I inspect a digger or whatever and find a defect and still use it and some one gets hurt because of the defect then the buck stops with me. If I don’t have a ticket and report it to my boss and still drive it and there is an accident because of it the boss will be responsible

I doubt that you could pass the buck in either circumstance ..... it is you who has found the defect and you should not be using the machine without rectifying the fault, or having it rectified by a 'suitably capable' person.
You are the 'deemed competent' person operating the machine, whether employed or self employed, ticketed or not...if in your opinion the machine is unsafe to use, continuing to do so is an unacceptable risk that you alone are taking.
I know it's easy to say, but you should refuse to do so, if instructed by an employer to carry on. If threatened with dismissal you'd have a decent case in the event of a problem .... but it'd still come down to your bum in the seat, using known defective kit.

 

[Smiffy]

I doubt that you could pass the buck in either circumstance ..... it is you who has found the defect and you should not be using the machine without rectifying the fault, or having it rectified by a 'suitably capable' person.
You are the 'deemed competent' person operating the machine, whether employed or self employed, ticketed or not...if in your opinion the machine is unsafe to use, continuing to do so is an unacceptable risk that you alone are taking.
I know it's easy to say, but you should refuse to do so, if instructed by an employer to carry on. If threatened with dismissal you'd have a decent case in the event of a problem .... but it'd still come down to your bum in the seat, using known defective kit.

There should be daily check sheets in place with a reporting system filled in handed into the office every morning This way you have alerted management and they cannot sack you or ignore it like they can with a verbal system
This system is used on hgv's and the drivers arnt peesecuted for the companies lack of maintenance
And infact daily check sheets and maintenance records are something that hse will ask for if they come on site and should be available for every piece of equipment on site right down to powertools

 

[sandy2210]

all the above are in place where i work but if i drive a defective machine with a ticket {and id does happen on EVERY site - its only one pallet from a waiting lorry the forklift will be fine etc}the its totally my fault no ticket then employer guilty as well, its one of the reasons we get our tickets through the company

 

[Smiffy]

all the above are in place where i work but if i drive a defective machine with a ticket {and id does happen on EVERY site - its only one pallet from a waiting lorry the forklift will be fine etc}the its totally my fault no ticket then employer guilty as well, its one of the reasons we get our tickets through the company

As i understand it it is the employers responsibility to rectify or remove the piece of plant from circulation
I know not plant but the well known incident of the tipper that ran away and killed someone after repeatedly being defected by the driver the owner and mechanic where prosecuted and the driver wasn't charged
As he had reported it and it hadnt been dealt with

 

[Rob 210]

As i understand it it is the employers responsibility to rectify or remove the piece of plant from circulation
I know not plant but the well known incident of the tipper that ran away and killed someone after repeatedly being defected by the driver the owner and mechanic where prosecuted and the driver wasn't charged
As he had reported it and it hadnt been dealt with

I would have thought if the driver had reported the vehicle to be defective and in an unsafe state to operate and carried on using the vehicle,he is more guilty than anyone for for keep using it
After all it could have been him killed!
If i was told to use a machine that i considered to be that unsafe and a danger to anyone including myself i would just park it up,and there it would stay until fault was rectified
I'm not a preacher about health and safety,but most of it is in place for good reason,but most is just good old common sense,sadly a thing that it seems some people lack,and yes some is a complete pain,but if it means you go home with everything intact and alive is it really that bad.
Just look at some of the clips on you tube especially in india where most of the guys are running round in flip flops,the diggers need 4 operators,in the form of 1 driver and 3 passengers on the bonnet.Great to watch but it makes me cringe every time i see it

 

[Smiffy]

I would have thought if the driver had reported the vehicle to be defective and in an unsafe state to operate and carried on using the vehicle,he is more guilty than anyone for for keep using it
After all it could have been him killed!
If i was told to use a machine that i considered to be that unsafe and a danger to anyone including myself i would just park it up,and there it would stay until fault was rectified
I'm not a preacher about health and safety,but most of it is in place for good reason,but most is just good old common sense,sadly a thing that it seems some people lack,and yes some is a complete pain,but if it means you go home with everything intact and alive is it really that bad.
Just look at some of the clips on you tube especially in india where most of the guys are running round in flip flops,the diggers need 4 operators,in the form of 1 driver and 3 passengers on the bonnet.Great to watch but it makes me cringe every time i see it

I know that should be the way but to many companies would get rid of an employee for refusing to drive a machine and far to many people in the uk not in a position to walk away from work at the drop of a hat therefore persecuting the operators for it is not very fair in a lot of circumstances

 

[V8Druid]

aye .... having the sword of Damocles hanging over your head is not a great way to work and certainly doesn't encourage good safety practices

Many years ago I turned up on a site in an 8 leg TMS300 Grove, 30 tonner, for a hire ..... the site was a sea of s**t, a foot deep .... no idea WTF was under it all .... as I am 'remonstrating' with the agent about the ground conditions and the fact that he was expecting me to blindly cross this s**t hole and then try and find something resembling solid ground to set up on, on the far side of it all .... the factory inspector turned up .... never been so pleased to see one in my life ..... I got paid for the day's hire and the agent had his site closed down until it was sorted sufficiently to allow the likes of myself to operate safely in there .... went back a week later to a decent roadway and a properly prepared crane pad, to do their lifts ... too many people used to take the piss .... two front axles on the Grove ran 13.00-20 Mitchys .... 'bout 600 quid each and not easily available .... you really needed to see what was in front of them, aside from the risk of disappearing into the 'soft', re-bar killed 'em instantly

 

[V8Druid]

I know that should be the way but to many companies would get rid of an employee for refusing to drive a machine and far to many people in the uk not in a position to walk away from work at the drop of a hat therefore persecuting the operators for it is not very fair in a lot of circumstances

sadly very true

 

[Rob 210]

I know that should be the way but to many companies would get rid of an employee for refusing to drive a machine and far to many people in the uk not in a position to walk away from work at the drop of a hat therefore persecuting the operators for it is not very fair in a lot of circumstances

sadly very true

If this is the case i'm sorry,and you can call me selfish,but I would not put myself at risk just because i was worried about loosing my job!
Druid did the right thing by not setting up the crane,where as if he had have just ploughed wildly on and buggered a tyre that would be a definite D.C.M
I would much rather walk away from a job than watch one of my colleagues get driven off site in an ambulance or worse