pricing work

[Antony Holmes]

sorry i cant lay clam to the below just stole it from else where

When your hay customers try to jip you on price - especially after you have gotten there with the hay, here’s a little story to share.
A customer asked me how much it cost to do this job....
I answered him: $ 1500
He said: So expensive for this job?
I asked: How much do you think it would cost you?
He answers me: $ 800 maximum... That's a pretty simple job right? !"
- For $ 800 I invite you to do it yourself.
- But.... I don't know how to.
- For $800 I'll teach you how to. So besides saving you $700, you'll get the knowledge for the next time you want
- It seemed right to him and he agreed.
- But to get started: you need tools: A welder, grinder, chop saw, drill press, welding hood, gloves etc...
- But I don't have all these equipment and I can't buy all of these for one job.
- Well then for another $300 more I'll rent my stuff to you so you can do it.
- Okay, he says.
- Okay! Tuesday I'm waiting for you to start doing this work
- But I can't on Tuesday I only have time today.
- I'm sorry, but I'm only available Tuesday to teach you and lend you my stuff. Other days are busy with other customers.
- Okay! That means I'm going to have to sacrifice my Tuesday, give up my tasks.
- I forgot. To do your job yourself, you also have to pay for the nonproductive factors.
- That is? What is this?"
- Bureaucratic, tax, vat, security, insurance, fuel etc.
- Oh no!... But to accomplish these tasks, I'm going to spend more money and waste a lot of time!
- Do you have them? You can do it to me before?"
- Okay!
- I'll make you all the material you need. Truck loading is done Monday evening or Tuesday morning you'll have to come by 6 loading the truck. Don't forget to be on time to avoid traffic jams and be on time
- At 6??? Nope! Too early for me! I used to getting up later.
...
- You know, I've been thinking. Y ' all better get the job done. I'd rather pay you the $1500. If I had to, it wouldn't be perfect and it would cost me a lot more.
When you pay for a job, especially handcrafted, you pay not only for the material used, but also:
- Knowledge
- Experience
- Study
- Tools
- Services
- Time to go
- punctuality
- Accountability
- Professionalism
- Accuracy
- Guaranteed
- Patents
- Sacrifices
- Safety and security
- Payment of tax obligations
No one can denigrate other people's work by judging prices.
Only by knowing all the elements necessary for the production of a certain work can you estimate the actual cost.
I did not write this dialogue, but am sharing it to support craftsmen and entrepreneurs.

 

[Nick...]

You’re spot on but allways someone with a wanky old digger who will do it for sod all,normally with no experience or insurance.see it all the time on farming forum with hedge cutting.lads doing it for £25 hour whilst using over £100k equipment.I’m affraid it will never change
nick...

 

[doobin]

You’re spot on but allways someone with a wanky old digger who will do it for sod all,normally with no experience or insurance.see it all the time on farming forum with hedge cutting.lads doing it for £25 hour whilst using over £100k equipment.I’m affraid it will never change
nick...

Farming is the worst, it's the young lads with Daddy's tractor and Daddy's diesel. Diggers are a close second!

The key for me is to be able to offer the whole package. And if they don't like the price, they can swivel.

 

[V8Druid]

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.

When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all.
When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

John Ruskin

Had copies of this up around my workshop and offices and simply referred hagglers to it

 

[Antony Holmes]

Farming is the worst, it's the young lads with Daddy's tractor and Daddy's diesel. Diggers are a close second!

The key for me is to be able to offer the whole package. And if they don't like the price, they can swivel.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there i am in the process of changing the way i work binning the day rate stuff in favor of offering a complete package but at lest i dont need to justify being £5 per day more expensive and with the price work it is more take it or leave it

 

[DaveDCB]

Farming is the worst, it's the young lads with Daddy's tractor and Daddy's diesel. Diggers are a close second!

The key for me is to be able to offer the whole package. And if they don't like the price, they can swivel.

Spot on there!

I only price work for others these days, I’ll do the odd day rate job but I’m not overly fussed about doing them, it’s more when I literally have nothing on. My price is final, I don’t add £1k on just because the customer has a nice car etc, my price is for the job done right just as I’d do it on my own sites, no corners cut and only the best materials.

 

[Russell]

As someone new starting out in groundworks I'm finding I get 90% of the day rate digger driver jobs I'm asked about and 50% or less of the price work for ground works. That would suit me but the digger driver jobs I've had are only 1-3 days so not so much money to be earnt, especially when the dumper needs fixing every other job.

 

[rossandson]

As someone new starting out in groundworks I'm finding I get 90% of the day rate digger driver jobs I'm asked about and 50% or less of the price work for ground works. That would suit me but the digger driver jobs I've had are only 1-3 days so not so much money to be earnt, especially when the dumper needs fixing every other job.

Sounds like the dumper keeps kicking you down when you don't need it! What have you got?

 

[Russell]

It's a 2003 tcp hit500 and I think it's lived outside most of its life. I don't think I bought very well so will look a lot closer next time.

 

[Gunners]

As someone new starting out in groundworks I'm finding I get 90% of the day rate digger driver jobs I'm asked about and 50% or less of the price work for ground works. T

Do you loose the jobs on price alone? Or a perceived reputation? Worth asking your clients why they chose who they did, you have nothing to loose and you might gain some information that allows you to win more work.

 

[V8Druid]

Do you loose the jobs on price alone? Or a perceived reputation? Worth asking your clients why they chose who they did, you have nothing to loose and you might gain some information that allows you to win more work.

always tried to follow up any decent jobs I didn't get and why .... information is knowledge and knowledge is power - to hopefully get it right next time

 

[Russell]

The recent jobs lost have all been down to price. I'm certain my allowances for time (labour) are accurate and materials I allow 6 inch of type 1 sub base for drives and 4-5 inch foot traffic only in gardens all with geotex membrane and then slabs,pavers or 10-20mm stone on top. Soil out I allow a bulking factor of 2 and 2 ton a cubic meter.
Does that sound over the top?
I know some people use crushed hardcore but I'm not sure it's as good and wacks down as well?
I've never had a upset customer to my knowledge except maybe a couple potential customers like that bloke who wanted me to track over new slabs without ply or the odd person who cant wait because the dumper is broken and awaiting parts ( 2 customers this year but that's digger driver jobs).

 

[doobin]

The recent jobs lost have all been down to price. I'm certain my allowances for time (labour) are accurate and materials I allow 6 inch of type 1 sub base for drives and 4-5 inch foot traffic only in gardens all with geotex membrane and then slabs,pavers or 10-20mm stone on top. Soil out I allow a bulking factor of 2 and 2 ton a cubic meter.
Does that sound over the top?
I know some people use crushed hardcore but I'm not sure it's as good and wacks down as well?

2 and 2 for the bulking and m/3 is slightly over the top but not excessively, just enough to make sure you don't loose. I wouldn't say that's whats pushing you too high on small domestic jobs. End of the day if you're not ending up with piles of material left over then you're estimating about right surely.

It can be a cutthroat trade. Next time you need a price for something, post the job and meterage on here and I'll look in my Spons 2020 price book for you.

Cruished hardcore is OK for some stuff but quality so variable and if it's not perfect then you'll loose more in time trying to deal with s**t stuff.

 

[Russell]

I have a feeling there are are a lot of people working for nothing over here but could be wrong.

 

[V8Druid]

I have a feeling there are are a lot of people working for nothing over here but could be wrong.

sounds that way .... no point in being a busy fool, out of pocket ....

 

[Smiffy]

I have a feeling there are are a lot of people working for nothing over here but could be wrong.

There are so many ways to cut corners on jobs like this
I can think of 3 local companies running muck away with tractors and tipping it in fields
Probably a dozen or so moving machines either with tractors or vastly overloaded pickups or transits
It all adds up

 

[V8Druid]

and you don't have a cat in hell's chance of competing with cowboys, no matter what field you're competing in.
Even my game had its cowboys .. idiots working out the back of a van with zero gear and even less idea, usually pinching or back door buying materials.
Just talk to folks whose work you don't get and get an idea of what sort of figures you're losing to .... If, like some of the work i didn't get, their prices didn't cover the materials, let alone the effort, you'll know it's no fault of your own and the client will have ended up with inferior work.
It's an age old problem and it's only going to get worse, as every man and his dog'll be out there trying to scrat some sort of income in these unprecedented times.
if you are confident you have it right, you'll just have to sit it out and await the demise of the idiots ... no help when you need the work, but as said already, better that than a busy fool, making a loss ..... can do that sat on yer arse, without any breakdowns or oncosts

 

[Russell]

Thats the way I see it. I would rather spend time with my little boy than go out working for nothing.

 

[Antony Holmes]

2 and 2 for the bulking and m/3 is slightly over the top but not excessively, just enough to make sure you don't loose. I wouldn't say that's whats pushing you too high on small domestic jobs. End of the day if you're not ending up with piles of material left over then you're estimating about right surely.

It can be a cutthroat trade. Next time you need a price for something, post the job and meterage on here and I'll look in my Spons 2020 price book for you.

do you find the sopns realistic i haven't used a price book for years but i did try it. It always seemed too expensive It could be, i work too cheep.

Cruished hardcore is OK for some stuff but quality so variable and if it's not perfect then you'll loose more in time trying to deal with s**t stuff.

when it comes to muck away i allow 3m3 on an 8 yard skip, 7m3 on a 8 wheeler grab, and 8 m3 on a 8 wheel tipper i have a guy with a tractor and trailer take some stuff away he tells me it is 12 ton but i don't it holds more than 4m3

 

[Shovelhands]

If you are not loosing at least 50% of your jobs, due to price, then you are too cheap...