All Terrain Excavating

[BillybobLockwood]

Hello All, I figured it was time I start one of these, as a way of showing how we Americans work, and soliciting the advice and opinions of other professionals.
we all Like talking Diggers right?

The Week started with finishing up my big pasture Dozing Job. I got in way over my head with this one, the original described Scope of work was "light Grading",
what we ended up having to do, to get paid, was more like Mass excavation, and we ended up moving 14k yards in 3 days, with a D3 and My new to me, 313 cat excavator.

Mid week, I Made the trip Up to Battle Ground Washington to Collect some new Kit for my Cat 301.7d Mini excavator, a new S30 engcon quick coupler, GB02 Grading bucket, and a Way to big DB02 Dig bucket. The dig is alright for now, but Ill be ordering a DB01 with teeth, when I order the tilties. We Installed the Kit Wednesday night at my dads Shop.

After the install I couldn't wait to try Them, and my friend Brett Needed Help topsoiling the yard at his new house, so off i went to have a Play, and all I can say WOW, Even with no tilty, these are AMAZING. I simply could not go back to NA style buckets now.

The week ended with me helping clear brush and debris from the storms at my churches Camp, WHAT FUN! We had a 299 cat with a grapple, and a bobcat 35I (very slow)

I hope everyone is surviving this covid mess, I would be interested to hear everyone's thoughts between SS1 (switch between tilt and rotate) and Full DC2 for my mini, it is nearly double the cost for the DC2 setup, factoring in install. Also, if anyone can help me get the picture orientation right, it would be greatly appreciated, they are right on the file, but when I upload to the forum, it messes it up.
best
Rob

 

[TiltyShaun]

Welcome to the forum. I have a Kubota kx71-3 with a button system. I also have a 18ton wheeled excavator that has a DC2. The thumb operated DC2 is a much better system. But on a mini, I could not justify the extra costs.

 

[V8Druid]

Hello All, I figured it was time I start one of these, ........I hope everyone is surviving this covid mess, I would be interested to hear everyone's thoughts between SS1 (switch between tilt and rotate) and Full DC2 for my mini,
best
Rob

that's an either /or set up on a pedal(?) ...
there is also the full pedal and button set up ... select required operation and then pedal control for flow.

It's how i built mine ... can operate tilt, rotate, Aux tool and hitch all simultaneously, but you cannot vary the speed independently as it's all fed by the same prop pedal flow ..
in practice two operations like tilt and rotate share flow so are reduced in speed compared to single op at the same flow rate.
it's not full DC2 but it gives you a very usable set up and once you're familiar with it, is quite easy to use combinations and speeds can be varied on the pedal and by the fact that introducing a second op. will also reduce speed, mid motion .... you soon get used to it and is waaaay better than a simple either /or .... DC2 is lovely, but at a serious price

 

[Randla]

that's an either /or set up on a pedal(?) ...
there is also the full pedal and button set up ... select required operation and then pedal control for flow.

It's how i built mine ... can operate tilt, rotate, Aux tool and hitch all simultaneously, but you cannot vary the speed independently as it's all fed by the same prop pedal flow ..
in practice two operations like tilt and rotate share flow so are reduced in speed compared to single op at the same flow rate.
it's not full DC2 but it gives you a very usable set up and once you're familiar with it, is quite easy to use combinations and speeds can be varied on the pedal and by the fact that introducing a second op. will also reduce speed, mid motion .... you soon get used to it and is waaaay better than a simple either /or .... DC2 is lovely, but at a serious price

A word of caution to anyone who doesn't know Graham @V8Druid

He is quite capable of fabricating pretty much anything but because he's got it, it doesn't mean it's commercially available. What Graham is describing here is generically known as SS5. Still fairly popular (last time I looked) on Road-Rail - at least this side of the pond - but discontinued (by Engcon, at least) a couple of years ago.

On the assumption that you have only a single hydraulic circuit @BillybobLockwood then your choices are likely to be limited to SS1 (Tilt or Rotate operated by pedal or joystick mounted roller selecting direction and speed with service switched using a momentary button),SS15 (Tilt and Rotate with joystick mounted buttons selecting service and direction with speed of both controlled by the pedal) or DC2 (Joystick mounted rollers controlling service, direction and speed independently). If you have a joystick mounted roller controlling the hydraulic flow then SS15 is not an option. I'll leave those who have made the financial choice to comment on why they did one thing rather than the other, but thought it wise to clear up the options. SS5 saves a bit of money over DC2 (non-proportional valves and buttons rather than rollers) but, with respect to Graham, you would have to build it yourself and the resale value would reflect that.

All, as ever, IMHO

Robert

 

[JD450A]

All, as ever, IMHO

Robert

Thankyou Mr engcon

 

[Randla]

Thankyou Mr engcon

Not any more Rory Now I can be as rude to you as I want without having to bombard you with merch........

 

[JD450A]

Not any more Rory Now I can be as rude to you as I want without having to bombard you with merch........

I want a one of your pens. You know the one with randla independent traders - London-peckham-india on

 

[V8Druid]

What Graham is describing here is generically known as SS5. Still fairly popular (last time I looked) on Road-Rail - ... - but discontinued (by Engcon, at least) a couple of years ago.
....,SS15 (Tilt and Rotate with joystick mounted buttons selecting service and direction with speed of both controlled by the pedal) or DC2 (Joystick mounted rollers controlling service, direction and speed independently). If you have a joystick mounted roller controlling the hydraulic flow then SS15 is not an option. SS5 saves a bit of money over DC2 (non-proportional valves and buttons rather than rollers) but, with respect to Graham, you would have to build it yourself and the resale value would reflect that.

All, as ever, IMHO

Robert

can't see why Engcon'd not swap the prop solenoids for on/offs Robert, on a full house tilty and simply provide an 8 core loom to trigger them ... same manifold'd run it and it's simply plumbed to a pedal prop service with service choice controlled SS5 style .... not difficult to wire a few buttons on yer sticks and a switch for the hitch

as for SS15... it's only out if yer buttons are stick top mounted ...front finger rockers'd be quite usable and still have roller control on yer thumb

 

[Randla]

can't see why Engcon'd not swap the prop solenoids for on/offs Robert, on a full house tilty and simply provide an 8 core loom to trigger them ... same manifold'd run it and it's simply plumbed to a pedal prop service with service choice controlled SS5 style .... not difficult to wire a few buttons on yer sticks and a switch for the hitch

as for SS15... it's only out if yer buttons are stick top mounted ...front finger rockers'd be quite usable and still have roller control on yer thumb

As you know I can't speak for any particular manufacturer anymore, Graham; but here's my take on it.

Volume manufacturing of any sort - diggers, attachments, phones whatever is all about repeatability. It keeps production costs low and speeds processes up. For a once-in-a-blue-moon request for SS5 the variable cost of making the changes you are suggesting would probably match the premium of SS10/DC2. IIRC, SS5 was discontinued because of lack of demand and the costs of upgrading the safety protocols. For a one-off variation then someone like John Craig or, dare I say it, @V8Druid could no doubt make something work, but your warranty and CE marking would be out the window.

The SS15 issue is more of the same, really. When I introduced this control system into the UK after Plantworx 2017 I got all sorts of sh*t thrown at me from every direction. Some from the usualy suspects for introducing an 'old system from a quality manufacturer' and 'we would never sell such a system'; but the biggest issue was from Sweden itself. I'd got our engineers to assemble the system out of the parts bin and test it on our demo digger. Our first real sale (to @TiltyShaun - step forward and take a bow) was sent off to Stromsund only for me to be told that it wasn't available (safety protocols and CE marking - not a problem on replacement spares but a big no-no on a new installation). In the end they made it and we found, after much searching, suitable sticks to work it, but mucking about with someone else's joysticks, or trying to find the ones that you are describing, isn't commercially viable.

HTH

Robert

 

[TiltyShaun]

As you know I can't speak for any particular manufacturer anymore, Graham; but here's my take on it.

Volume manufacturing of any sort - diggers, attachments, phones whatever is all about repeatability. It keeps production costs low and speeds processes up. For a once-in-a-blue-moon request for SS5 the variable cost of making the changes you are suggesting would probably match the premium of SS10/DC2. IIRC, SS5 was discontinued because of lack of demand and the costs of upgrading the safety protocols. For a one-off variation then someone like John Craig or, dare I say it, @V8Druid could no doubt make something work, but your warranty and CE marking would be out the window.

The SS15 issue is more of the same, really. When I introduced this control system into the UK after Plantworx 2017 I got all sorts of sh*t thrown at me from every direction. Some from the usualy suspects for introducing an 'old system from a quality manufacturer' and 'we would never sell such a system'; but the biggest issue was from Sweden itself. I'd got our engineers to assemble the system out of the parts bin and test it on our demo digger. Our first real sale (to @TiltyShaun - step forward and take a bow) was sent off to Stromsund only for me to be told that it wasn't available (safety protocols and CE marking - not a problem on replacement spares but a big no-no on a new installation). In the end they made it and we found, after much searching, suitable sticks to work it, but mucking about with someone else's joysticks, or trying to find the ones that you are describing, isn't commercially viable.

HTH

Robert

And I am still very pleased that you did make it work!!!

 

[CPS]

'we would never sell such a system'

That would be me i guess

 

[Randla]

That would be me i guess

I'm not one to gloat, Aiden but it helped get people into tilties that would otherwise be still thinking about them and both you and I know how (price) sensitive things are at this end of the market.

On edit: and sorry Aiden, I should have included you in the list of possible engineers that could retrofit SS5 and do other stuff

 

[V8Druid]

can see exactly where you're coming from Robert ....
but the fact remains that they did sell such a system once and that would imply that at that point they were flogging a system that they shouldn't have? but at the time there was nothing better
Plenty of 'retro' stuff on the market in all fields and if there's a demand, why not resurrect what was once 'state of the art' ???
it's not exactly rocket science and was once their std product ...
without your resurrection Shaun would not have had his system that he's perfectly content with for the last X number of years

On edit
not everyone wants to buy the top of the range vehicle, for instance ... 'swhy manufacturers have base models with a huge list of extras/add ons, right up to the all singing, dancing, shag pile, Ghia type model, with maybe a dozen engine options along the way too

 

[V8Druid]

we could go round and round on this one .... but surely if there is a demand, a canny manufacturer would be sensible and more than happy to fulfill it

 

[Furniss]

can see exactly where you're coming from Robert ....
but the fact remains that they did sell such a system once and that would imply that at that point they were flogging a system that they shouldn't have? but at the time there was nothing better
Plenty of 'retro' stuff on the market in all fields and if there's a demand, why not resurrect what was once 'state of the art' ???
it's not exactly rocket science and was once their std product ...
without your resurrection Shaun would not have had his system that he's perfectly content with for the last X number of years

On edit
not everyone wants to buy the top of the range vehicle, for instance ... 'swhy manufacturers have base models with a huge list of extras/add ons, right up to the all singing, dancing, shag pile, Ghia type model, with maybe a dozen engine options along the way too

 

[JD450A]

On edit
not everyone wants to buy the top of the range vehicle, for instance ... 'swhy manufacturers have base models with a huge list of extras/add ons, right up to the all singing, dancing, shag pile, Ghia type model, with maybe a dozen engine options along the way too

Known in the industry as the EMYH there not options there necessities Package

 

[V8Druid]

Known in the industry as the EMYH they're not options they're necessities Package

sorry Rory ... took me a minute or two to work out what you were saying

 

[Randla]

can see exactly where you're coming from Robert ....
but the fact remains that they did sell such a system once and that would imply that at that point they were flogging a system that they shouldn't have? but at the time there was nothing better

I'll answer this one but I think we are in danger of hijacking @BillybobLockwood 's post without doing him the honour of giving him a reply to his question. The first tilty control system was SS1 (steering system 1 - well it would be, wouldn't it?) Over the years things have progressed and better control systems have come and gone. Since we are now on SS10 (DC2/ICS/X-control) it's possible to deduce that there have been quite a few that have gone by the wayside and some of them will have been because of advances in digger sophistication. Before I reinvented the wheel and brought back SS1 and SS1-5, there were SS5 and the SS9 variants (the latter for twin circuit systems). SS5 was there because, at the time, electrically controlled pilot valves or PWM didn't exist (or was too expensive) and there was a demand for simultaneous control of multiple functions, so people put up with just one speed control and made it work - just as you have, Druid @V8Druid . There's nothing wrong with it, it's just that things have moved on and newer (larger) diggers can do more things. It's also not helped by the fact that, in the home of the tilty, expectations in terms of sophistication are higher. In younger markets such as the UK, not everyone can afford to go full fat - hence the compromise. The issue is most keenly felt on smaller diggers where price is an issue and drops out above around 9 tonnes. Perversely, SS0 (no control system) post-dates most of the rest because a digger with twin proportional hydraulics and a hitch line will accomodate a tilt and rotate direct mount application quite well - indeed, I sold a number of these onto larger machines which were just doing groundwork.

Anyway, as I said, we have hijacked BillyBob's thread. Will someone who owns these systems give him some feedback on the relative merits of DC2/ICS/X-control vs the lower order systems - @TiltyShaun , @Grifferr ,@Gunners ? Aiden @CPS - can you suggest some red ones?

Robert

 

[Randla]

sorry Rory ... took me a minute or two to work out what you were saying

Still haven't figured out EMYH

 

[JD450A]

Still haven't figured out EMYH

Bullshit you know exactly what EMYH stands for.