Regs or standards concerning the use of older diesel stationary engines

[andrew_lumb]

Hi all,

First post, so please bear with me if in the wrong section!

I'm posting to try and find some information about the use of older (15yrs plus) diesel generators/ stationary engines, for example those that might be used at a showground for powering rides, catering vans, equipment and such.

If they are still meeting an age-appropriate emissions standard, then I expect it is fair to continue using them. But, once they start to become overly noisy, smoke excessively and probably no longer meet the emissions standard they were produced against, is there some regulation that would prevent them from being used?

In this case I am supporting a village show, and one of our themes is a greener community. I want to try and avoid conflicting that message by challenging traders to use cleaner engines where possible.

Many thanks, Andrew.

 

[Lancs Lad]

@JD450A is our emissions expert ,he'll be along shortly.
Worth bearing in mind the emissions created when you throw a 15 year old engine away and create a new one...

 

[Charlie]

Unless your in London there are NO regulations on diesel generators apart from the recent ban on using red (unless your a showman). The Purple Guide only stipulates that no petrol generators should be used, and of course any electrics in vans etc should be signed off with cables being PAT tested for your own protection rather than any legality.
Pretty much anyone and everyone on the show circuit uses a diesel generator and there is not a lot of alternatives and especially for one show. No punter really notices what's powering the show so I would leave the traders alone and not piss them off as you'll probably not have a show without them. Concentrate more on the things punters will notice like no disposable plastic on site, recycling bins around the site, re-usable pint glasses in the beer tent etc, etc.
C.

 

[Steve]

No reason why a properly serviced & maintained diesel generator would become noisy or start smoking. I would be concerning my self more about electrical safety.

 

[doobin]

Listen to this blokes advice, he knows a thing or two about putting on an event

Unless your in London there are NO regulations on diesel generators apart from the recent ban on using red (unless your a showman). The Purple Guide only stipulates that no petrol generators should be used, and of course any electrics in vans etc should be signed off with cables being PAT tested for your own protection rather than any legality.
Pretty much anyone and everyone on the show circuit uses a diesel generator and there is not a lot of alternatives and especially for one show. No punter really notices what's powering the show so I would leave the traders alone and not piss them off as you'll probably not have a show without them. Concentrate more on the things punters will notice like no disposable plastic on site, recycling bins around the site, re-usable pint glasses in the beer tent etc, etc.
C.

 

[JD450A]

Most of the older engines when properly maintained are actually cleaner than there modern DPF utilising counterparts on the whole. Not just in the fact that many use less diesel but also in the fact that they aren't pretending to be green by storing all there particulate matter up in a DPF and then spewing it out as black reek once a day.

If your really worried then perhaps the village show should hire there own generator set and supply the traders power..... Because of I was a trader and someone felt the interest to question my little generator set I'd simply not patronise the event.

 

[craig]

Most of the older engines when properly maintained are actually cleaner than there modern DPF utilising counterparts on the whole. Not just in the fact that many use less diesel but also in the fact that they aren't pretending to be green by storing all there particulate matter up in a DPF and then spewing it out as black reek once a day.

If your really worried then perhaps the village show should hire there own generator set and supply the traders power..... Because of I was a trader and someone felt the interest to question my little generator set I'd simply not patronise the event.

Even more so if your charging the traders for a pitch

 

[Charlie]

Listen to this blokes advice, he knows a thing or two about putting on an event

Ha, ha, The golden rule is never ask permission, just do and apologize if you need to later . Had the steam rally here a week ago, 8k through the gate and 1k camping on site. If your worried about a puff from an old genny, you should of seen the s**t some of the tractors pulling were pumping out . Can't beat that smell of old oil, diesel and coal.

Back to the question @andrew_lumb I did ring up the guy I rent my big gennys for shows off and he confirmed there are no environmental regulations if your outside London. Or any other regulations apart from no red for that matter. As @Steve says above, just make sure your electrical safety on site is beyond reproach. I'd expect you insurance underwriter insists on diesel generators as well?

C.

 

[Charlie]

@Steve , just pulled out the Purple Guide and there is very little on generators. Have copied below what there is. I'd recommend buying the Purple Guide as it is really useful to quote or reference to in risk assessments etc.

INSTALLATION
11.7 Where possible, locate the main electrical intakes and/or generator enclosures so they are accessible for
normal operation or emergencies but segregated from public areas of the venue. Display dangerwarning
signs
around the intake or enclosure. The signs should comply with the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals)
Regulations 1996.
11.8 Electrical equipment that is not suitable for exposure to weather, or other adverse conditions and is not sited in
a permanent weatherproof structure should be protected by means of suitable and sufficient covers, enclosures or
shelters as may be necessary to prevent danger arising. When siting the electrical equipment consideration should
be given to hazards such as flash flooding or rivers and streams flooding the site during prolonged rainfall. As far as
reasonably practicable, all electrical equipment should be located so that it cannot be touched by members of the
public or unauthorised workers.
GENERATORS
11.18 If generators are to be used and the venue is located close to a residential area or campsite, consider the
noisenuisance
factor. If this is excessive, silenced generators may be a suitable means of reducing it. When
earthing generators refer to BS 7430. This will provide guidance on the earthing of mobile generators for outdoor
events. Where generator supplies are taken into a building or existing electrical environment, including other
generatorsupplied
systems, attention should be paid to the deliberate or casual interconnection (e.g. via signal
wires) of earthing systems to ensure safety in the event of a fault on either.
REFUELLING OF GENERATORS
11.19 When siting the generators, safety and environmental considerations should be taken into account. The use of
petrol fuelled generators should be discouraged in favour of diesel, gas or renewable energy. Care should be taken to
ensure that if any spill occurs, the fuel will not enter main drains, drainage ditches, streams, rivers or lakes etc. All
generators and bulk storage tanks should be fully bunded and containers should be of the correct type. When
operating, continuously running generators should always be regularly checked for safe operation. Those checks
should include both internal and external fuel supply tanks for signs of leaks that could lead to a spillage. If the fuel
supplies are likely to be restocked then suitable access should be provided for the refuelling vehicles. The generator
and its fuel should not be accessible to members of the public or other unauthorised people and may need to be
fenced. For those staff with a responsibility for refuelling, basic training on how to refuel safely, deal with spillages
and what to do in an emergency (such as fire) must be provided. Adequate fuel spillage equipment should be
available.
FIREFIGHTING PROVISIONS
11.20 A fire point containing first aid firefighting equipment should be provided close to the generator site and clearly
signed. The correct type of fire extinguisher(s) should be provided and staff with responsibilities for the generator
should be instructed on what to do in the event of a fire.

 

[V8Druid]

ref. red diesel in gennys ..... AFAIK red is still permissible in domestic generators and for use by showmen ... just not for 'commercial' generation.
quite where or how you would draw the line for trade stands at shows, would be an interesting argument

 

[Charlie]

ref. red diesel in gennys ..... AFAIK red is still permissible in domestic generators and for use by showmen ... just not for 'commercial' generation.
quite where or how you would draw the line for trade stands at shows, would be an interesting argument

Just looked through the guidance and as per usual it's as clear as mud! It looks like it depends on weather the land/premises it is being used on is commercial or not along with the activity???

Using rebated fuels in vehicles and machines (Excise Notice 75)

Find out when you can use rebated diesel, biodiesel or kerosene in vehicles and other machinery.

www.gov.uk

Did see this that I didn't know. Wonder how many classic tractor owners have bothered?!

Some vintage tractors (in production before 1960) and cars (in production before 1956) need to run on a mixture of kerosene and petrol.

Kerosene is a heating fuel and the excise duty on it is fully rebated (reducing the excise duty to nil). For this reason, it is illegal to use kerosene in any vehicle or to mix it with road fuels unless you have a permit from us allowing you to do so.

To apply for a permit email: oils.policymail@hmrc.gov.uk with details of:

• the vehicle you want to use kerosene in, including year of production
• what the vehicle is normally used for, the frequency of use, and the anticipated annual mileage
• why kerosene needs to be used
• how much kerosene you expect to use

If we decide to allow you to add kerosene to your vehicle’s fuel, we’ll send you a permit stating the circumstances in which you may use kerosene.

 

[V8Druid]

Just looked through the guidance and as per usual it's as clear as mud! It looks like it depends on weather the land/premises it is being used on is commercial or not along with the activity???

Using rebated fuels in vehicles and machines (Excise Notice 75)

Find out when you can use rebated diesel, biodiesel or kerosene in vehicles and other machinery.

www.gov.uk

Did see this that I didn't know. Wonder how many classic tractor owners have bothered?!

Some vintage tractors (in production before 1960) and cars (in production before 1956) need to run on a mixture of kerosene and petrol.

Kerosene is a heating fuel and the excise duty on it is fully rebated (reducing the excise duty to nil). For this reason, it is illegal to use kerosene in any vehicle or to mix it with road fuels unless you have a permit from us allowing you to do so.

To apply for a permit email: oils.policymail@hmrc.gov.uk with details of:

• the vehicle you want to use kerosene in, including year of production
• what the vehicle is normally used for, the frequency of use, and the anticipated annual mileage
• why kerosene needs to be used
• how much kerosene you expect to use

If we decide to allow you to add kerosene to your vehicle’s fuel, we’ll send you a permit stating the circumstances in which you may use kerosene.

the relevant section was high lighted in the red diesel thread a few months ago Charlie ... thought I'd kept a copy but can't bring it to hand ATM

 

[V8Druid]

LL put it up @Charlie

where are you quoting that from please LL ??