Qualifications/NVQ - JD450 On a Rampage.....

JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk
Finally worked up the interest to type this out this morning after a week of being told such lies as "you'd be a good ambassador for the industry" and "that's a good idea"

Read it. Let me know if you agree/disagree, and more to the point whichever way let me know if you would be happy to be quoted at a later date if it grows legs.... Initial opinions from 5 of the 10 people it has been sent to are very positive so I would be interested to know what you all think.

Worth just noting the reason I am doing it is because I do honestly feel that left to there own devices they will end up warping NPORS/CPCS into a utter twat of a scheme for us all.... this is a initial draft and I'm open to anyone chipping in suggestions.
 

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Gunners

Gunners

Well-known member
The more support this can get the better, the schemes need to start reflecting industry needs, not the industry bowing down to accreditations and tickets. LinkedIn is a good place to get some momentum behind this Rory, it just needs to be pitched in the right manor as you know how up tight people get on there!
 
Bri963

Bri963

Well-known member
Rory, I’m very impressed with what you’ve put together here. Personally I’d roll your levels 1 & 2 into 1, move eeverything down a level, but that‘s just me, be interesting to see what other people think. You have a good head on you, just doesn’t come through on here very often :)
 
S

Smiffy

Well-known member
This would be great for people entering the industry especially if it was all tied into a college course so that 16-19 year olds can take it on a government funded basis
The only problem I see is with people who are older than the government funding covers who wish to enter the industry or are already in it and want to become qualified
The nvq portion of the current card system already seems disproportionately expensive for what it is
4 modules would quickly become to expensive for a lot of people
This is unless the funding system can be sorted to help the individual
There is help available for company's to put people though qualifications but it's very difficult to get help if your boss doesn't want to help you
If individuals have to apply themselves it could hopefully help in two ways
A) help more get a foothold in the industry when they are in a dead end position
B) weed out the people who are just shoved through quals by big companies who don't give a toss as hopefully they wouldn't put the effort into applying

Hopefully this makes sense as this is basses on the problems I had around tickets
 
JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk
Rory, I’m very impressed with what you’ve put together here. Personally I’d roll your levels 1 & 2 into 1, move eeverything down a level, but that‘s just me, be interesting to see what other people think. You have a good head on you, just doesn’t come through on here very often :)
I did think about that, but a it is better to cover the basis and IMHO Having a more Basic level one allows those with naff all ability to get on site.

The following are the theorys (supposedly) behind each unit.

Level 1 – An introduction to the subject area you choose to study, covering routine tasks and the learning and practical application of basic knowledge.

Level 2 – Involves carrying out complex work-based duties, and gaining a good knowledge and understanding of a subject. These are performed in variety of contexts – involving a combination of individual responsibility and team work.

Level 3 – The range of duties become vaster, and their complexity increases. Autonomy and responsibility is also more prevalent in this level – with some control and guidance needed.

Level 4 – Provides a specialist and detailed level of learning, usually covering a specific area of work. This level is ideal for those looking to manage others or work in technical roles.

Level 5 – Involves learning about an area of work on a deeper level, allowing you to understand and respond to complex situations whilst gaining a high level of expertise. Also covers senior management and the training of others.

Worth Noting a NVQ 2 is equivalent to GCSE Grade C - A*, A NVQ 3 is Equivalent to A levels, and 4 and 5 are undergraduate Degrees.

Thank you anyway Bri. I rarely try to be clever/educated as I've very little interest in becoming a "professional" and the forum is my blow out/entertainment. However this is a serious topic and IMHO the forum is a excellent sounding board.


The only problem I see is with people who are older than the government funding covers who wish to enter the industry or are already in it and want to become qualified
The nvq portion of the current card system already seems disproportionately expensive for what it is
My feeling on this IMHO is that the current NVQ is seen as disproportionately expensive because in the current system it is very undervalued. No one will ever ask for your NVQ yet it is actually the more important qualification to that of a CPCS Card.

The chances are your initial NVQ (whether a 1 or a 2) would be needed to be done at a college... https://www.duchy.ac.uk/courses/construction-plant-operations-2/ The current tuition cost for a NVQ1 at duchy appears to be £623. But there is no reason if the system was set up properly that the NVQ units could be completed with minimal tuition and then the cost would be verification and qualification. This is particularly true for those of us that know our salt. Provided you can demonstrate knowledge with a NVQ (i.e Take Photos, explain what is going on and Draw Diagrams) then you should be able to complete unit criteria's.
 
GazCro

GazCro

Well-known member
Completely agree that the current cards system wants a revamp (scrapped). The nvq idea is a good plan to start from and what you're suggesting is a lot better plan. The biggest problem there will always be is that there will have to be a minimum standard that will have to be met to be called a competent operator. Its the minimum standard part which will always spoil the job as it'll allow too many useless c**ts through to avoid an operator shortage.
Re tickets for tiltys etc ffs its an attachment if an operator isn't fit to use a tiltrotator their likely not for with a bucket so why are they on a machine to begin with. I guess I'm lucky to have been taught how to use a digger my old fella (wish I'd had more time with him had to fill a few blanks in myself) but the experience i got from sitting on the 3cx mudguard and then getting behind the sticks near enough as soon as i could reach no college course can provide.
I think the biggest thing that needs sorted is to be able to distinguish between someone who can drive a digger and someone who can actually use one. Maybe this is where a proper nvq system would come into its own, but it would need to be a lot better than the current style nvq system which probably doesn't have enough levels to really define ability.
 
B

Brendan

Well-known member
It needs an overhaul, but if anything that's just a way of them creating a massive revenue stream by splitting everything up. More nvqs will keep older generations or not very computer literate people away. Cpcs will also jump at the chance of splitting up machine tickets into multiple parts leaving people able to operate a machine but use no attachments on a site.
 
GazCro

GazCro

Well-known member
It needs an overhaul, but if anything that's just a way of them creating a massive revenue stream by splitting everything up. More nvqs will keep older generations or not very computer literate people away. Cpcs will also jump at the chance of splitting up machine tickets into multiple parts leaving people able to operate a machine but use no attachments on a site.
It'll just end up a bigger money spinner that's for sure. Imho if you're fit to operate a machine it shouldn't matter what is on the end of the dipper.
 
M

mart1602

Active member
these cards are nothing more than a money making scam ,they prove nothing more than the holder can pass the test on the day.i did the cpcs card when it came out many years ago only because it was free i wouldnt have paid for it! in one day i got 180,360 above and below i think it was 6 ton,masted forklift,telescopic forklift and forward tip dumper .i grew up on a farm and was driving tractors etc from 7 yrs old so had a lot of experience by then.as i have said before no one failed,most had no clue and some had never driven the items of plant before that day it was a joke its just another box ticking excersise to cover your arse if it goes tits up.i never renewed my tickets and have driven plant ever since but i wouldnt be allowed on site now with 30 plus years experience,i stay well away because its just too much hastle what the industry should remember above and beyond is its not law to have a ticket and i think a cv of experience would be far better
 
sjs5060

sjs5060

Active member
Rory it look great, but the thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the fuckin price! I don’t have any tickets, and tbh the price of doing up to a blue card is f****ng scandalous, if the ‘big’ companies want these card systems they should f****ng pay for them. £300 max per category is enough, and once you’ve got it that’s it. How many of us suddenly forgot how to drive when our cards ran out?
its as much use as tits on a bull moaning about no good operators/no new blood when it costs a f****ng fortune just to be able to get in the seat.
i do agree if it’s being done it should be done properly but if these firms made up tradesmen to be site agents like they used to instead of employing graduates there’d already be someone on site who could quickly suss out if a drivers up to the job.
I’ve 24 years a working machine man and like yourself several years before I left school, am I gonna spend ££££’s to have some tie wearing penis toucher who’s never done a shift on a machine tell me wether or not I can operate the thing? I’d rather spend the money on brasses and coke, i’d feel like I’d got more for my money
 
JD450A

JD450A

Feral as Fk
The simple fact is there is no need to be computer literate to do a NVQ2.... If we where to base the NVQ2 as the standard for "competence" all current Blue card Operators would be fine as in theory all blue card operators should have a NVQ 2 by now anyway (Below are photos of young rory for all to see).

The Attachments etc aren't to provide competence but more so provide modules for people to complete should the wish..... If the Validation of a unit was £100 and you had the option of doing a Tiltrotator unit at NVQ3 you would wouldn't you if you wished to have it :unsure:

We are in the situation where paperwork is a necessity. Time we all stopped being scared of it and instead kicked it into a box we can actually use. For example if you wished you could enter the industry on the ground, do up to a NVQ5 and then use it to move forward and do a university degree.

I appreciate the money thing. But if you could do a NVQ3 covering say Digger, Dumper, Dozer, Telehandler and Tractor for £1200... it'd likely be cheaper than doing a CPCS Blue card in each (y)

I'm on the verge of pushing it into the mainstream. Most people seem to think it's a good idea with the concern that it'd be made into a money leach being the biggest issue!
 

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Randla

Randla

Interloper
I'll leave others better qualified than I to comment on the rest, but I can add a bit of value in sharing my experience as far as NPORS is concerned. When I started setting up Engcon in 2015 I was coming from outside the industry and had a lot to learn, but at the same time I had a fresh viewpoint. Very early on the issue of tickets came up and one of the first things to occur to me was that it was not only a money-making exercise but also a massive box-ticking/backside-covering one too. The issue I had was that you had all of these different categories of digger and all of a sudden you put a tilty on it and the way it works changes completely (think forks as an example) and some measure of operator competence was needed. I therefore set about trying to get some form of generic tilty qualifaction sorted. Leaving aside the bricks that got thrown at me for trying to create yet another ticket, CPCS was a non-starter because a) you had to go to a CPCS centre to get the ticket and b) non of these were equipped with tilties.

NPORS won hands-down simply because they come to the operator and assess competance on the machine that the operator is using, in the type of projects that the operator gets involved in (although they do cover the core digger competances comprehensively). For me that is a major benefit to all concerned. As an aside, NPORS testers are qualified on the tickets that they test for, whereas CPCS instructors are not necessarily so (in other words you could have a CPCS assessor testing you for a above 10t 360 who can't drive a digger himself).

You are right to an extent that it used to be the case that the bigger contractors wouldn't recognise NPORS, but I think that has largely changed now.

HTH

Robert
 
M

Mick-the-fitter

Member
The difference between operators and drivers, would make my job easier, and there would be less damage and more wear.
 
Bri963

Bri963

Well-known member
I'll leave others better qualified than I to comment on the rest, but I can add a bit of value in sharing my experience as far as NPORS is concerned. When I started setting up Engcon in 2015 I was coming from outside the industry and had a lot to learn, but at the same time I had a fresh viewpoint. Very early on the issue of tickets came up and one of the first things to occur to me was that it was not only a money-making exercise but also a massive box-ticking/backside-covering one too. The issue I had was that you had all of these different categories of digger and all of a sudden you put a tilty on it and the way it works changes completely (think forks as an example) and some measure of operator competence was needed. I therefore set about trying to get some form of generic tilty qualifaction sorted. Leaving aside the bricks that got thrown at me for trying to create yet another ticket, CPCS was a non-starter because a) you had to go to a CPCS centre to get the ticket and b) non of these were equipped with tilties.

NPORS won hands-down simply because they come to the operator and assess competance on the machine that the operator is using, in the type of projects that the operator gets involved in (although they do cover the core digger competances comprehensively). For me that is a major benefit to all concerned. As an aside, NPORS testers are qualified on the tickets that they test for, whereas CPCS instructors are not necessarily so (in other words you could have a CPCS assessor testing you for a above 10t 360 who can't drive a digger himself).

You are right to an extent that it used to be the case that the bigger contractors wouldn't recognise NPORS, but I think that has largely changed now.

HTH

Robert
I think you’ll find that to be a CPCS assessor you need to be able to operate and pass their advanced test, unless you’re just talking about NVQ assessors.
 
Bri963

Bri963

Well-known member
I did think about that, but a it is better to cover the basis and IMHO Having a more Basic level one allows those with naff all ability to get on site.

The following are the theorys (supposedly) behind each unit.

Level 1 – An introduction to the subject area you choose to study, covering routine tasks and the learning and practical application of basic knowledge.

Level 2 – Involves carrying out complex work-based duties, and gaining a good knowledge and understanding of a subject. These are performed in variety of contexts – involving a combination of individual responsibility and team work.

Level 3 – The range of duties become vaster, and their complexity increases. Autonomy and responsibility is also more prevalent in this level – with some control and guidance needed.

Level 4 – Provides a specialist and detailed level of learning, usually covering a specific area of work. This level is ideal for those looking to manage others or work in technical roles.

Level 5 – Involves learning about an area of work on a deeper level, allowing you to understand and respond to complex situations whilst gaining a high level of expertise. Also covers senior management and the training of others.

Worth Noting a NVQ 2 is equivalent to GCSE Grade C - A*, A NVQ 3 is Equivalent to A levels, and 4 and 5 are undergraduate Degrees.

Thank you anyway Bri. I rarely try to be clever/educated as I've very little interest in becoming a "professional" and the forum is my blow out/entertainment. However this is a serious topic and IMHO the forum is a excellent sounding board.

Paint yourself how you like Rory, you’ve put a lot of thought into this and from my point of view you aren’t far off the mark with what you’ve written. Think you may have become a professional.
 
Randla

Randla

Interloper
I think you’ll find that to be a CPCS assessor you need to be able to operate and pass their advanced test, unless you’re just talking about NVQ assessors.
Here's the thing. As part of the tilty training process, we had to devise a train the trainer module. The first batch of 12 assessors applied for and went through this which involved a practical exercise to familiarise themselves with a tiltrotator. Nothing complex - pull a trench with 45 degree batters and backfill. Something that you'd learn right from the beginning, except that with a tilty you can do it without repositioning the digger. We even demonstrated it to them beforehand.

On the first day three of the four failed this - one even hit the tracks with the bucket. All three had ported across to NPORS on the basis of their existing CPCS training tickets and admitted afterwards that they couldn't operate a digger. Needless to say, NPORS revoked their digger tickets the following day.

Robert
 
V8Druid

V8Druid

do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
... a practical exercise to familiarise themselves with a tiltrotator. Nothing complex - pull a trench with 45 degree batters and backfill. ...We even demonstrated it to them beforehand. .. On the first day three of the four failed this - one even hit the tracks with the bucket. All three had ported across to NPORS on the basis of their existing CPCS training tickets and admitted afterwards that they couldn't operate a digger. Needless to say, NPORS revoked their digger tickets the following day.
Robert
QED :oops::rolleyes::mad:
 
Bri963

Bri963

Well-known member
Couldn’t operate a tilt rotator probably, but I suppose the rest makes a good story.
 
V8Druid

V8Druid

do it as well as you can,but learn to do it better
Couldn’t operate a tilt rotator probably, but I suppose the rest makes a good story.
" All three had ported across to NPORS on the basis of their existing CPCS training tickets and admitted afterwards that they couldn't operate a digger. Needless to say, NPORS revoked their digger tickets the following day. "
think that says it all Bri ..... couldn't drive a hot knife through butter BTLs
 
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